Have you ever played against Lilia top as a tank?
No. She. Isn't.
Yeah she is pretty dumb to play against top, agreed. I spent a ton of time working on adjustments for top vs jungle in development and post-ship. If her top ever picks up play-rate we would likely make more adjustments cause I agree it's super lame.
I have an idea : what about making Titanic Hydra Melee Only so Zeri can't abuse it ?
Ah maybe bad idea since Urgot neither neither couldn't use it then ?
Yeah urgot would be collateral in that case. In addition, it's fairly nuclear for one champion. But with that said, could be an option for the future.
Probably? But it would require a lot of inelegant work. And even so, her mid win-rate sits above her support win-rate historically and the play-rate does not match up with the viability, so it seems players want to play support Seraphine. Even as of writing this, her mid is above 50% win-rate and around 1.5% more than support.
In addition, mages typically just have high win-rates in bottom lane. They scale similarly to marksmen and serve a similar teamfight DPS role, so it's very difficult to make them better mid than bot.
Another question: is there a way you can shift Seraphine to the mid lane while nerfing her APC role and doing minimal nerfs to her support role?
Probably? But it would require a lot of inelegant work. And even so, her mid win-rate sits above her support win-rate historically and the play-rate does not match up with the viability, so it seems players want to play support Seraphine. Even as of writing this, her mid is above 50% win-rate and around 1.5% more than support.
Is there any plan to look at Essence Reaver? Imo that item contributes heavily to the sivir and xayah build issues at the moment with both so frequently preferring lethality.
We don't currently have a plan but I'll note it's on the radar. There's just a lot of collateral for this item (Fighters, Assassins, Draven, and Ezreal all benefit similarly to Sivir/Xayah). May need some shape adjustments in the future.
I understand she needed nerfs because of her bruiser build, but at what point do nerfs do if she still has the same problems? Wouldn't just removing an unhealthy mechanic or removing an unwanted interaction be better overall? Just my question, not an attack.
Oh yeah definitely. But this patch is the first patch she had a reasonable win-rate in SoloQ, which gives us an opportunity to analyze what exactly contributes to pros prioritizing her. It's possible she's just doomed to sit below 49% (like Ezreal and Kalista tend to be), but if even then she is 100% p/b for organized play then we could look at individual mechanics.
I main both Kalista and Lillia and I'm scared... As two previously meta/pro-play -defining champions I really don't want them to become too strong and then nerfed even harder because of that
It's always a risk, hoping to hit soloq more than pro with both these adjustments.
cancer buffs
Lillia is cool ok
Yasuo Yone buffs need context, is this compensation for last patch healing nerfs?
Not excited for Karthus buffs, dude already does way too much damage, getting global nuked for 80% hp mid/late is not fun.
Ryze needs adjustments not nerfs, the champ is still too pro bound.
Confused at Umbral Glaive buffs because its already ridiculously strong for the few champs who can use it. Maybe widening use case?
Moonstone nerfs are good, hopefully that takes a bite out of enchanters.
Galeforce nerfs are also confusing, is it really so strong that it needs a targetted nerf? My impression was that Gale and Kraken were pretty even.
Cant remember the last time I saw an abyssal mask, buffs will be good.
Also good to see Time Warp Tonic nerfs, that dumb rune defines pro midlane with corrupting pot.
Galeforce is contributing slightly too much safety to hypercarries, causing (especially in organized play) them to be too difficult to punish, especially compared to its pure defensive counterpart Shieldbow
Omg they're finally nerfing moonstone. That item is oppressive since it is giving too much value with little downside.
Zeri getting nerfed isn't a shock (pun not intended) to me since she has so much bs in her kit that it ends up being unhealthy.
Ryze needs a rework.
Although Zeri is looking (comparatively) reasonable on live, her pro play presence still sits in the stratosphere, hence further adjustments/nerfs.
I can already feel the rage at Yasuo/Yone buffs...
But yes, Kalista and Gwen buffs!
I just wish they would do a mini rework on Sivir and Kalista like they did for Ahri etc...they really need and deserve it
I wanna see if we can get some QoL stuff for Kalista some day, she certainly could use it. Sivir I agree could use a larger scope change similar to Ahri, her play-rate sits low pretty permanently and is frequently a risk of stale pro play.
Hi sorry I’m super late but just wanted to say I really appreciate all the game theory discussion in this thread and these are risk areas we actively think about frequently.
I admit I just bought them because they were cool, and had no idea about the outreach.
I mean that's not what I'm going to tell my wife when she notices the new skins, but that's my business.
Illusion: 100
Teemo is not there? Teemo pretty much needs some form of sustain, either using Riftmaker or Ravenous. He is an AP champ, you know.
Those are just example champions. If we look and see teemo is significantly hurt by the changes then he can get adjustments too.
we expect some champions that relied on Ravenous to need adjustments going forward
Are there really any champs that rely on ravenous still?
I posted a list somewhere else but it’s mainly sustained damage mages and AP junglers.
Any reason for removing the plant stack on q? I'd hardly say thats where his skill ceiling lies... It just feels kind of useless if you try to increase his fero timer for qol but it still ends up being a net nerf cus you cant reset it on plants.
Wanting to remove the level 1 Q on blast cone optimization that any new Rengar won’t know without watching videos. It’s part of the accessibility changes as we can’t buff Rengar if the best players are using mechanics that give them power others don’t have.
All mages that needed spellvamp are probably gonna feel real bad that these changes happened because ADs abused the omnivamp from Ravenous.
Battle Mages are again forgotten by Riot and left with even less chances actually play the game.
Yeah it’s not forgotten, we have a list of champions that had Ravenous hunter as their most taken/highest winrate runes that are on our watch list. What we found is that the list is far shorter than you’d expect. Example champs based off current data:
Those champions can all get individual adjustments if we find they need them after the changes, it’s not forgotten at all but compensation buffing before we understand the impact did not seem worth the risk when we can be far more precise in the follow-up patch.
What do you do if it turns out the rune is terrible? This doesnt seem like a rune you can finetune all that well.
There’s lots of levers actually. The amount of gold it gives and how much it scales per kill for example. If we thought snowballing off the first few kills was too good (or bad) we can adjust the proportion of kill 1 vs kill 5, or just increase/decrease all of them flatly if it ends up strong/weak
Thanks so much for the reply anyways! As well, are you able to confirm that these changes (the lifesteal ones) are in preparation for the damage and burst reduction changes that are currently being worked on according to u/RiotAxes (e.g., as he stated here and here)? If so, is there any current rough ETA for when those changes will ship?
Yes this is our first step into our initiative of holistically improving the sustain+damage levels in league. No public ETA yet for the rest of this project, but I can at least say it's something our teams are prioritizing highly and testing/iterating on constantly as we believe the League experience can be better with these parts of the game retuned.
Does Riot also plan to make the same or similar crit consistency changes to other champs/abilities, such as Aphelios ult/GP barrels? Would be nice to phase out the pure RNG that some champions have in crit builds.
While I’m personally also not a fan of dice-roll one-shots, I’m not aware of any current initiative for retuning those abilities around being more consistent. Might be worth a discussion in the future though.
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