And for future reference, I'm probably the person to poke over Rory for wording quibbles :P
Me: Mom, I want [ Enemies Killed Explode ]
Mom: We already got that at home.
At Home: [ Killed Enemies Explode ]
: ' )
There is already an issue on my list to improve those descriptions for 3.10.0, but I can't yet say what form any improvement there will take.
When a skill gem adds extra flat damage, like many attack skills, is that damage base, added, or neither? I suspect neither, but better be sure.
If it "adds" damage, that damage is added. There is no "neither" - all damage is either base or added, and for attacks, base damage comes from the weapon's damage values.
The only exceptions I'm aware of to that are Spectral Shield Throw and Shield Charge, which both provide an amount of base damage directly on the gem, like spells (because shields are not weapons and thus cannot provide base damage), but also add damage based depending on the armour and evasion rating on the shield. Note that the base damage is explicitly described as being base damage, and does not use the term "add" anywhere, while the added damage is not described as base.
Read moreRight, that I understand, it's why spectral throw is so comically short on modifiers.
What I mean though is, normally for any effect other than the actual hit effect of a projectile coliding with an enemy, be that an explosion, a secondary zone of damage, whatever it might be, will be listed if it's not simply a more or less damage multiplier.
For instance, infernal blow. it states that it deals:
Explosion deals base Fire Damage equal to 6% of the corpse's Maximum Life Debuff deals 66% of Damage per Charge
Both damage types are included in that statement as it's just generic damage.
But cremation, if it's the same as detonate dead (sorry for all the corpse explosion mechanics but there aren't that many sources of secondary damage in PoE, apologies), deals a percentage of the corpse's life as damage, and does not include any other damage, be that base or added.
I guess that's where I'm getting hung...
I'm not sure in what you're using "secondary effect" to mean - you discuss secondary damage in relation to corpse skills, but that's not relevant to explosive arrow, as the explosion is attack damage. The difference here is more like the distinction between the melee and projectile hits of Lightning Strike - both attack damage, but with some different modifiers applying.
With Cremation, the explosion deals secondary damage while the projectiles deal spell damage - the base damage of one type can't be used to calculate damage of the other type. Added spell damage will likewise not apply, although global added damage will apply to both.
I'm getting the impression that the "deals x% of base" wording may be a contributing factor to the confusion here. This was used because we wanted it to match the other modifiers on attacks that modify base damage, since those are exactly what it looks like. Would it be less confusing if it said "Explosion deals 50% less Base Damage"?
... Read moreSo to make sure I'm understanding correctly, theoretically I have a bow that has a local 100-200 flat phys, and no other sources. That becomes 50-100 in the explosion.
Or, if I get 100-200 from other sources like rings, abyssal jewels, whatever, and a bow that deals no physical damage (but doesn't disable it) the explosion will deal the full 100-200 phys damage?
That seems very counterintuitive, normally added/secondary effects will list out everything that goes into them, and it being excluded does not imply 100%, but 0%. For instance, detonate dead does not say anything about the explosion dealing (or not dealing) base damage, but it does not.
That is correct. The default case for any hit is that you will deal 100% of base damge and 100% of added damage, which is why those are the cases which are not explicitly described on gems/skills. Effectiveness of Added Damage is not shown on gems where it's 100%, and "Deals x% of Base Damage" is not shown on gems where it's 100% (which I believe currently includes all spell gems, only attacks use this modifier because spells would just have different base damage values on the gem instead). Certainly I think it's understood that in cases where a skill doesn't explicitly list those modifiers, it will hit for full damage, not 0% of it.
Explosive arrow's hits don't list any explicit modifiers to either, so deal 100% of base and 100% of added damage. The explosion is also an attack hit from that skill, but has a specific modifier only to the base damage, leaving the added damage as it is for the rest of the skill.
Internally the reason for this is that both of these are...
Read moreI only worded it that way because of the ways that bleed, poison, and ignite are calculate and typically worded: "Potential damage from one bleed application is based on the base physical damage of attack that caused it" (from the wiki)
though digging deeper and seeing Mark's forum post that is cited for that forum line: "Bleeidng deals 70% of the applicable (usually physical) base and added damage of the skill, per second, for 5 seconds base duration."
you are absolutely correct. I can't think of an instance prior to Spellslinger where the distinction between base damage and added damage (after any damage effectiveness, of course) was significant, so "we" have always lumped base and added damage together for convenience of discussion (I guess)
I can't think of an instance prior to Spellslinger where the distinction between base damage and added damage (after any damage effectiveness, of course) was significant
The main way in which Base and Added Damage are treated differently is that there are specific modifiers to each of them, most notably Effectiveness of Added Damage on skills (which obviously affects only Added Damage, not Base), and the matching "Deals x% of Base Damage" modifier which is only currently used on attacks (and tends to have a value that matches the EoAD for the skill, though there are exceptions to that). However, there are a few others out there, such as Summon Skeletons having "Minions gain 50% more Added Damage", which is a more modifier for the minions that only affects Added Damage.
To be fair to you as well, there is one instance where even GGG does this, I may poke rory about it in fact, Explosive arrow.
It mentions the explosion damage is based on 50% of base damage, no mention of effectiveness of added damage on the gem itself (assumed 100%), but the explosion should use a different word to just base.
No, that's correct. The explosion deals 50% of the base damage, but does not modify how much added damage is dealt (thus leaving it at full effect since the skill's effectiveness of added damage is 100% and thus not displayed).
For contrast, level 1 Heavy Strike has the stat "Deals 176% of Base Attack Damage", and also has 176% Effectiveness of Added Damage. The Explosive Arrow only modifies the first of those for the explosion.
And for future reference, I'm probably the person to poke over Rory for wording quibbles :P
Ah I see, the wording of "skill-support" confused me then. Thank you!
Skill-support is like bane (primarily an active skill gem with a support effect). Support-Skill is like Shockwave Support (primarily a support gem, but also grants an active skill).
Oh, hi Mark!
When I said "like" I meant "similar to" because obviously it can't act as a system that doesn't exist yet. But wouldn't it just("just") involve re-coding it to work like that other meta-gem that casts all auras, except for curses?
Edit:Forgot to meme.
That's not "just" anything - that's a ground-up rework of everything the gem does, to change it into a fundamentally different thing.
Current Blasphemy isn't any more like a meta gem than Added Cold Damage Support is. They are both entirely normal support gems that do nothing but modify each skill they apply to.
The potential new blasphemy in PoE2 will be very different, including the fact that it will grant a skill.
Wait a second... How about a skill-support-skill-support?
Spellslinger gets more expensive by support gems. Well, Bane doesnt need Support gems since its has its Curses as damage modifiers.
Does this kind of trigger a trigger gem work? Would a wand attack trigger a spellslingered Bane that applies the curses? That would be interesting!
The curses would have two triggers (Bane and Spellslinger), and thus be disabled.
I don't understand why is relevant particularly with the Dancing Dervish sword.
Because the sword disables itself when manifested, specifically to make you unarmed. If you also have no gloves, this will make you unencumbered and thus work with the keystone.
On the off-chance that you might still answer, since spellslinger is also a support gem, can it be consumed by The Hungry Loop?
It is a skill gem, not a support gem. It just also grants a support effect. But all gems (currently) are of one type or the other. It's just like Bane in that respect.
/u/Bex_GGG /u/Mark_GGG is the 300% increased Damage only apply to the "first" poison stack put on an enemy that's not currently poisoned or would it apply to all poison stacks in a single server tick when transitioning from non-Poisoned to Poisoned (assuming there are methods to place several stacks in a single server tick)?
Only the first poison was inflicted on a non-poisoned enemy. All the other ones were inflicted on a poisoned enemy and do not benefit from the modifier.
When you say will "usually" change those values, does that mean there are local damage mods that won't change those values? If so, any examples you can give?
To my knowledge, local damage modifiers will always change the displayed values (outside of cases where other modifiers make such changes irrelevant - quality won't change the displayed physical damage values on Storm Cloud, because increasing no damage doesn't cause any change).
But in that part of my post I was talking about local modifiers in general, there are some non-damage local modifers that do things weirder than just changing the values of an item - for example local modifiers that change what sockets the item has/can have.
Will this, alongside CoC and similar gems get the meta tag when poe2 drops?
Probably
So wait, are skills supported by SS still able to be hand-cast? Or triggered by other triggers in the same link setup?
(Both questions for both the case when SS is turned on and off.)
The more I think about it, the more mechanical uses I come up with.
No. This is a trigger, and like all other triggers in the game, skills with a trigger cannot be used manually, and skills with multiple triggers are disabled, preventing triggering or using them at all.
Does this imply somehow that the mod doesn’t get factored by the new Spellslinger?
Spellslinger only does anything with the Weapon's damage, which is the damage values shown on the weapon item. These are affected by local modifiers. These values are what becomes your base attack damage when you equip the weapon.
Non-local modifiers don't change those values, so have no interaction with Spellslinger.
Do you happen to know if it goes below zero?
Physical Damage Reduction cannot be below zero.
+/-% directly is always additive to other sources.
It's directly subtracted from their "increased phys reduction" (which is fantastic terminology...).
it's subtracted from "Physical Damage Reduction".
"increased phys reduction" (or any equivalent) doesn't appear anywhere in the game - there are no "increased" modifiers that apply to Physical Damage Reduction at all, only + and - modifiers.
Oh! Then I misunderstood the functionality of Spellslinger. I thought that each individual active skill linked to SS would have to be turned on individually to be able to be triggered. (Similarly to, say, Blasphemy supported curses.)
Ed.: Also, having SS be an active gem instead of a support gem has some implications regarding the usefulness of some "+ levels of socketed X gems" modifiers. (Or the Empower support!)
Ed.2: Does this then mean that the 0.5 second cooldown is tied to the Spellslinger skill, not to each individual triggered skill? If I have two different active skills linked to Spellslinger -- either in the same socket group, or in two different ones -- will I be able to trigger both skills within the same 0.5 second interval? Or will triggering one skill begin the Spellslinger skill cooldown, which prevents any other Spellslingers from being activated for the 0.5 second duration?
That's actually how it worked in an earlier prototype, but it was changed for a few reasons. The most glaring being that in order to work at all, that had to break the rule that skills with a trigger can't be used manually - you needed to be able to use the skill to turn the reservation on/off, while still making it triggered so the trigger could work (and then of course it needed to not use the overridden "reserve" behaviour when triggered that it did when used, despite being the same skill). We could do that (and did), but having it obey the established rules is more elegant, and safer in terms of potential bad interactions with other future content.
I don't know if we actually addressed this with the prototype, but if we went live with that version we'd also need to break the rule that skills with multiple triggers are disabled entirely (because you could add a second trigger while the reserve was up and then be unable to use it to turn it off). Which runs into ...
Read moreWhat I'm saying is, to me, Spellslinger seems much more similar to say CwDT: triggers the supported skills when some event happens, and adds some bonus to the triggered skills. Unlike Bane; which can be used and has a notable effect purely on its own, but then gets further powered up by linking other active skills (curses) to it.
What makes Spellslinger a "skill-support", that does not apply to other triggers that do not require to be linked to a skill triggering the effect (again, CwDT for example)?
Like Bane, it has it's own active skill you use. That skill just isn't capable of doing anything until at least one spell is socketed. Bane can be used without any supported curses because it also applies it's own debuff. Spellslinger's skill can't because the only thing it's skill does is reserve mana (amount dependant on linked spells) and "turn on" the triggering of linked spells.
If Bane didn't have the DoT effect, it would still be a skill, it would just be a skill that didn't do anything without a linked curse.
It is literally an active skill that also applies a support effect, which is how Bane works as well. CwDT does not have an active skill, it's an entirely normal support gem.
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