Factorio Dev Tracker

15 Sep


Originally posted by robot_wth_human_hair

I really dont think so. There are items where it will make sense more than others. Assemblers, sure. Inserters? No way. Power poles?.....maybe. this is a self limiting system. Nobody says you need an entirely legendary base from belts to assemblers.

Actually, inserters or even power poles make sense.You need to realize that quality is a multiplicator of price, so if something is cheap to begin with, making more quality version of it is way more affordable (lab is a great example), while making legendary spidertrons and such, that is where the craziness starts ...


Originally posted by neon_hexagon

Regarding quality

I used the "it's optional" argument, but I didn't mean it as an excuse for "It's shitty but it's ok, because you don't have to use it".

Lol, because that's exactly how I'm using it. The justifications given still don't entice me to use quality. I still don't like it and don't understand why it needs to exist. There already is quality: assembler 1, assembler 2, etc. The randomness is annoying and not fun.

By the way. We were thinking ahead, and the expansion is actually divided in a few mods and quality is already separated into a mod.

This means, that you can play with quality but without the planets, or the other way around. So you don't even need to mod it out of the game, u just uncheck this feature.

The actual motivation mainly was for mods replacing our space content with their own overhaul to still be able to just activate the default quality (or other stuff) without the need to do it manually.


Originally posted by Mytho0110

Great FFF, few thoughts on the new trigger method. New players will benefit greatly from this, and on that premise alone it should be included. Without new players the longevity of this game diminishes. However,, veteran players will be bothered by it as they now have an artificial road block that they must push through. If I use myself for example, I build with a backwards design. I start with what I want the end to look like and I work my way back to the start. So when I build oil, I first design my oil refinery and then go plug in oil to it. Same with electronics, Ill often have gears and electronics already set up and awaiting input for my starter base. Now I would have to wait to craft 50 iron before being able to see green circuits.

My suggestion to allow for new player experience, and accommodate veteran players, would be to tie the trigger unlocks to the UI function of highlight new recipes. This would allow a new player to have this on by default, but a veteran pl...

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I understand the concern. But I think it is just another limitation we have to play around. Limitations create strategy.
But mainly, it didn't really feel like a bad thing even for us when tested the game as a whole, it actually felt more organic to do it differently.


Originally posted by Denuro

I'd love to see the productivity recipes requiring the item you're researching as a cost.

Wanna increase the productivity of the rocket control unit? Yeah you're gonna need some ammount of rocket control in that research.

I just have no idea how that would be implemented in the lab. Maybe a new building used just to pay the costs of productivity researches?

We were actually considering exactly this.
But the reason we declined this idea was, that having one central resource (the whole research) improving one specific thing is more strategical compared to just "sacrifising" some part of the production to make it better over time.


Originally posted by SmartAlec105

I will say that I’ve come around on Quality for the most part but I do feel like it has a high chance of misleading new players into thinking they’re supposed to start using the highest quality options as soon as they are available. You can see this happen when they replace every inserter with fast inserters even though those are overkill most of the time.

I like these research unlock methods. I’ve seen Seablock do similar which was a great way to help guide the player at the start.

You can't have a good strategy, when there is no way to play a bad strategy. No pleasure without suffering. That is life I guess.

Factorio always had strategy aspect, but the expansion apmlifies it, which was the goal.


Originally posted by Mnemonicly

Are the trigger technologies things that need to be queued in order to proc the research or if I craft 10 copper plates will I automatically unlock electronics?

It doesn't need to be queued. But when there is nothing else going on, the technology gets queued automatically to display the progress.


Originally posted by OleschY

That comment about Catan is very confusing to me. We are talking about the law of big numbers but assume that only one game of catan is played, or what?

Well, if I wanted to play a match of 1000 games to decide who is better, it would be as you suggest. But it rarely is the case. And even if it is, it is quite a big investment to figure out which strategy is actually better. Imagine playing 1000 games and the realizing "Ok, so this strategy doesn't work, lets try something different for the next 1000" :)
This is why poker, for example, stands much better, because one round of poker is way faster compared to one game of catan.


Originally posted by MrCatUa

Doesnt productivity research and it being capped at +300% mean that you can get net neutral (put 1 in, get 1 out) recycling to legendary loops? That makes the whole thing much simpler in end game.

Correct, we also noticed that and discussed it, and there are 2 ways to look at it:
1) It would be very expensive to get there, but maybe at that point it would be interesting to have something change so drastically, that you can have legendary stuff (just the few select recipes) in the highest quality wihout an extra cost. I like the idea of infinite research having some "turning point" in some extreme future where things change, instead of just gradually growing.
2) We would just nerf things around a little to not allow it, the numbers could be changed just a little bit to make this never happen. But it would still mean that the ratio of getting the legendary items would be much nicer for the player as the turning point would be getting closer anyway, and that is fine.


Originally posted by Thenumberpi314

You can recycle spidertrons in a recycler that has quality modules.

Congratulations, as you might be the first person outside wube to realize this is the only way. We realized it a long time ago, and found it to be so hilarious, that we made a special achievement for consuming a legendary fish, it is probably one of the most hardcore achievements in the game :)

Today's fish is trout a la creme.


Originally posted by pancakeQueue

I work at a semi conductor company. That company produces so many silicon wafers. The silicon wafers are checked for quality and those of lesser quality are reprocessed. I view this feature in factorio the same.

There are too many people out there, who think that automation in the real world is infinitelly precise and there are no better or worst products. Therefore, they assume that it doesn't factorio, but the reality is just the opposite.


Originally posted by P0L1Z1STENS0HN

From my own experience, you can even build a 16k spm megabase without a single reactor. However, I definitely needed uranium to get the necessary train acceleration/speed. The trains are consuming about 10 nuclear fuel per minute.

Since all the multiplicative factors of quality stuff on production, speed and solar panels. The ratio between production and power generation tends to be way less extreme (less power generation) in megabases compared to vanilla, which is also a wanted effect.


Originally posted by SmartAlec105

“I hate this mechanic” is perfectly fine as feedback. Not the most useful form but it’s still worth knowing that a lot of people dislike an idea.

If people really understand the mechanics and their implications and hate it, its valid stance. But this post was mainly addressed to people which hated it for all the wrong reasons.


Originally posted by P0L1Z1STENS0HN

To put a price to that - according to the screenshot the 2nd level needs 2250 science packs. I think it's safe to assume the same exponential progression as with e.g. artillery range.

Then, if I put it into my spreadsheet correctly, the total needed to get to level 30, is 1,207,959,550,875.

Assuming that all the quality improvements allow us to reach 50k spm, that's just over 1100 years of playtime; and we would have to get to 1M spm to be able to live to see level 30. And then it takes just as long as all previous levels together, to research level 31...

Not all exponentials have 2 as a base :)
Basically, the lower the base is, the more likely it is, that it have a meaning to choose between the recipes strategically, instead of making everything at the same level.


Originally posted by Kano96

Most of these seem like low output volume recipes, is that on purpose? It makes sense to me, you are unlikely to fill a full belt of steel, so the extra productivity won't cause any issues in most cases. (and it's not a big deal to design these factories with some extra output belt capacity in mind)

Plastic seems like the odd one out in that aspect tho. I like the inclusion of an oil product, but I feel like a combined oil processing/liquefaction or just rocket fuel would make more sense.

Yea, low output volume recipes are the good choise because of the reasons you provided.

Also I like that we have one infinite research that doesn't even need space science, so you have more choises of what you want to do at each stage of the game.


Originally posted by lee1026

If the cost is exponential like the current ones, even very large factories won’t be touching level 30. Two to the power of 30 is a lot.

It depends on the base of exponent. There are interesting differences when the exponent is for example 2 versus 1.8 or 1.5 etc.


Originally posted by sonaxaton

Do technologies that require a trigger work even if you trigger it while the technology is locked behind other technologies? Like does it "remember" that you triggered it in the past, so you would instantly research it once it becomes available?

That is a good question. I think that it currently unlocks no matter what, but I can imagine it being configurable. Or maybe there should be another state of the technology which would mean something like "triggered, but waiting for prerequisities to be unlocked", basically what you suggest.
It would probably make the most sense.


Originally posted by FlurgBungler

Are the changes to research and the trigger technologies going to be exclusive to Space Age, or will they change the base game too?

This is for the base game as well.


Originally posted by megalogwiff

How can the endgame research be infinite, if productivity is capped at 300%?

Also, designing perfect ratios for late game just became practically impossible.

The research cost scales fast enough that it's not really possible to reach level 30. Also, at some point when you get beyond 300% including productivity modules (or other bonuses), you can start replacing productivity modules with speed modules inside of machines.


Originally posted by Choice_Percentage_26

I would like to have the option to show a message in chat when a research is completed, like in the "Improved Resarch Queue" mod by sonaxaton. With the queue like it is now it is easy to miss what research was completed.

We somehow forgot to include it in the FFF, even when I implemented it yesterday just to make the topic a whole. (Implemented sounds little bit too much for the 6 lines of changes, including the localisation and changelog entry)


Originally posted by StarryGlobe089

Triggered research sounds great! Perhaps they should be color coded differently in the research tree so that you can identify what needs manual action.

Will research always be unlocked by either science packs or trigger, or can a research require both?

You can distinquish them by not having science pack icons in the bottom. If both trigger and research is desired, it can be easily just two technologies one depending on another.

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