League of Legends Dev Tracker

Originally posted by Dracoknight256

example, most mid laners ran CDR/level runes and so the Runes Reforged base stat changes actually made mages tankier against one another. To claim otherwise means you didn't actually look at pro rune pages and just regurgitated what other people said.

This here is the problem. You're talking about pro choices. Most people couldn't afford that many runes and just ran two generic pages which for example for botlane had flat armor yellows, MR/lvl or flat MR+Mr/lvl blues, AD bronze ones and quints based on preference for ad/as/armor/ms/pen when they were buying. I definitely do not have ~80 MR at level 18 on ADC like I did back then.

Another thing is you're talking about bases. All runes have some ratios. My question is: Does APC with electrocute do same damage at 20 minutes he did back then with TLD? I'm fairly sure the answer is NO, even if ratios remain the same.

Anyway, I was intrested so I googled. EC has 20 more base, 10%more b...

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Originally posted by [deleted]

Super underrated series so far imo, but really appreciate the in-depth analysis and all the work that goes into making it happen!

Originally posted by tpst

which is the confusing part isn't it? if leona, on paper, does the least damage in her lifetime why is she currently one of the more contested - and complained about - supports? Obviously there's more complex variables than raw numbers on her kit, but it's interesting.

Originally posted by InHaUse

Okay I'll agree that I'm not sure about the difference in tank support damage. I do remember release Thresh and how much damage he did.

I've been playing since season 1 and it just feels like everyone is doing more damage. I don't know if there's a way to quantify this, but looking at professional teamfights it looks like they are way more about burst and less about kiting and sustained damage.

Originally posted by bonly

You don't think naut/leo runes aren't boosting their damage?

Well, according to u.gg, the most common and winningest Leona rune page is:

Aftershock (25-120 damage +8% bonus HP), Font of Life (not damage), Bone Plating (not damage), Overgrowth (not damage), Biscuit Delivery (not damage), Cosmic Insight (not damage), +1-10% CDR based on level (not damage), +6 armor (not damage), and +15-90 Health based on level (not damage).

Meanwhile, this was Ignar's Leona page at Worlds 2017: https://i.imgur.com/fTMiN0u.png

You tell me.

Originally posted by josluivivgar

I think leona is a great example of what I mean.

Leona in the past like you mention had more damage in the past and against squishier champs.

So why does she feel that she's stronger now?

Because of Aftershock, aftershock + her passive work nicely into frontloading all the damage at once.

Combine this with players overall being better at the game and being better at coodinating bursts and you got yourself the reason why things "feel" like they have more damage.

The damage might be the same or even less in the game but it "feels" like it's more because there's more damage being frontloaded instead of over time.

Granted that doesn't mean that that wasn't a thing in the past, champions like malphite are as old as time but always bursted you.

It just things like aftershock and the new sunfire and champions having their damage more frontloaded nowadays that makes the overall feel of league as more bursty.

I do wonder what r...

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Originally posted by falconstar3

Completely agree for level 1, Leona if she got on you at level 1 in the right matchup would solo you as an adc back in 2013. Now she waits until 2 everytime. Is there a Breakeven of where we're squishier now or that tanks are doing more damage now because of item scaling or something (maybe even just passives on items, less utility more damage these days - Zeke's for instance) Just curious

Originally posted by LegFinger

Yeah, pretty much anything that can be auto'd can be senna q'd, although the heal only comes through for you for things like turrets

Originally posted by LeviZm

Now call me crazy, but IIRC league wasn't released until 2009..? Thats why we just had that 10 year anniversary..

Originally posted by Rockm_Sockm

I love you Phreak but when this has been proven true, especially for adc's being instantly blown up, time and time again you cite math as a shield.

Riot also reduced adc base stats, and gutted shared xp two years in arrow. The non stop buffs to solo laners also impacted the game. Regardless how fed bot lane gets, they are down 2-3 levels at a minimum to a solo laner.

Damage is up in multiple positions and completely down in one. You can take personal shots at Codysun and say the math says otherwise all you want.

Originally posted by InHaUse

Then the issue isn't in the runes, it's in the new champions and item changes.

Regardless the true source, damage needs to be nerfed across the board. Perhaps an easy solution would be to just increase base and per level armor and mr for everyone?

Originally posted by mcasterix123

First up, I get your point about runes needing to be ~50% more powerful to match up, but I'm not sure if the math adds up, or it's at least difficult to quantify. The only old non-keystone mastery I'd consider to have the same value as a rune like Perfect timing is maybe Insight. Inspiration in general is a mess.

Also, they don't carry the same restrictions as the S7 masteries, where the (arguably) more valuable masteries required more points to be invested (again, another advantage of L: Tenacity vs Swiftness).

This leads me into Feast and ToB. I don't really see how I'm ignoring history given I said exactly what happened to it in the patch notes.

Most champions running ToB tend to proc it very safely with ranged autos or abilities IE Kennen, Akali, and Aatrox, plus I'd say its harder to gauge its healing due to its ratios. It's ultimately just made the rune way stronger for those that can run it safely, and not necessarily worth it for anyone else.

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Originally posted by TheOmnivious

When they changed the rune system I remember that MR overall was nerfed to match the loss of Magic Penetration runes which were run on a fair number of champs. However, by reducing the overall MR of champions to compensate, it buffed champs that never ran Magic Penetration, such as Nautilus, Leona, etc. Any magic dealing champion was indirectly buffed.

That much is definitely true. However, Leona was compensated her more common Mark choice of +armor. Nautilus, who was compensated +ASpd, got substantially less +Armor.

Now THAT argument could be made, but is combated via the stat shards we have today and the %spell damage and penetration masteries of yesteryear that champions like Leona and Nautilus ran then.

For example, here's IgNar's infamous Fervor Leona rune/mastery page: https://i.imgur.com/fTMiN0u.png

I'd argue today's Leona damage output is weaker than that.

Originally posted by josluivivgar

I think what it really boils down to, is that tank champions feel like they do more damage than they used to.

Im purposely using the word feel because before, design on tank usually favored dots over straight damage (think amumu w sejuani old aoe thing etc, shen poking with q).

Damage over time will always "feel" weaker even if the numbers are the same.

The thing is that now everything seems to have their damage front loaded and so it feels like there's more damage. (Stuff like aftershook help with that feeling, even if aftershock has a delay for the damage it's burst damage).

I don't know if damage is the same or not (and tankiness), but the feeling that tanks can burst you is very real

Originally posted by tpst

I dont think many people would disagree with your logic, but i also think something is missing. The game has undeniably gone from 5D chess to a top-down call of duty.

Take lee sin, for example. Lee never used to be able to R-Q-Q people, it was always Q-R-Q to get the damage necessary for the Q execute. Now he just builds lethality and one shots non-tanks at most stages of the game, with little counterplay, where he used to fall off hard.

Naut and leo never used to kill ADCs in one rotation, now they do. somethings f**ky

Originally posted by mcasterix123

First, many players who were likely to face little magic damage early would take the scaling MR glyphs to handle mixed damage more effectively after the laning phase. Second, not only did champions get the compsenatory stat buffs, but they also gained more AD or AP through traits throughout S8 that S7 runes offered in the first place.

Also, it's worth noting a lot of the old masteries were very % based IE 3% more dmg to low enemies, 1-5% damage increase upon killing enemies etc. It meant that snowballing was only marginally increased and didn't amplify early leads as much/ make polarised lanes any more polarised.

Second, let's take a look at some of the runes with direct analogues. Electrocute: higher base damage and ratios than thunderlord's. Coup de grace: 8% against Merciless's 3%. Grasp: up from 3% health damage to 4%. What about L: Bloodlines/Ravenous Hunter as compared to Vampirism? Or Swiftness (a rune which required significant investment into the resol...

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Originally posted by Lord_Drizzy

Awesome job man, always a big fan of your work and all your insight in videos, on the dive, and especially on broadcasts! Keep it up Azael!

Originally posted by imArsenals

The discussion is that there’s powercreep/damage creep. The discussion is that there’s characters like Qiyana that can nearly 1 shot adc’s without ulting (Cody talked about this in the video).

Redditors and others may not know exactly where this damage creep is coming from, and they wrongly place the blame on other things (such as rune reforged). My guess is because it’s a lot more obvious when you get hit by electrocute/dark harvest and die vs. no visual effect when you had old runes but still died. But the entire conversation is still about damage seemingly being higher.

So, while you are correct in saying “it isn’t runes reforged, here’s the math”, it doesn’t address what people are actually finding problematic. What would address it is “the damage creep isn’t runes reforged, it’s X Y and/or Z”. Alternatively, there may not be damage creep at all, though I don’t think this is the case.

Originally posted by Sgtvangelder

I sometimes run AP+AP as Naut because I don't need the tank stats. I blow up the ADC and unless the enemy support is Leona or Braum, I blow them up too.

As a support main who primarily plays Thresh, Naut, Leona, and this season some Senna I can say that way more times than I can count 1v1 the enemy adc with 0 problem. I always read the patch notes, and mathematically true or not what matters is that it FEELS like damage is way out of control.

I played Aphelios in an ARAM last night, and the enemy AP Gragad could kill me in under a second, while the entire time I am cc'd by uncleansable cc, and don't deal damage back. Playing squishy champs doesn't even feel fair half the time because everyone lives longer and does more damage.

Originally posted by imArsenals

Phreak, while the damage/power creep may not specifically be from runes reforged - there is still a damage/power creep and that’s really the “issue” Cody Sun and others are complaining about. And you know that.