devtrackers.gg
ranged nerfed to 525
AUGUST WHY?!!!
kayle gets 575 range at level 16
f**k you I apologise
I'm dead
I'm in shock
ranged nerfed to 525
AUGUST WHY?!!!
kayle gets 575 range at level 16
f**k you I apologise
I'm dead
I'm in shock
There seems to be various reasons that float around for why the RGM communication isn't resonating.
One base reasoning I see is the idea that setting up another RGM is "easy" since "you guys already have the <assets, code, etc> for it"
It's easy to assume that supporting the RGM is as easy as flipping a switch and the only reason that you guys aren't doing it is for monetary/retention reasons. Whereas in reality there are many technical reasons for not doing so.
Perhaps some communications on the more technical difficulties (Game servers being different, scaling, constant support, etc) would help clarify not just why you guys made one decision, but why you guys didn't make a different decision.
Stretch goal for monetary cost evaluations, i.e we don't make vague skins since each skin costs multi-millions of dollars of infrastructure and labor cost.
Hey! You're absolutely right, technical complexity is the reason RGMs aren't able to just be flipped on.
The best analogy I can make is that RGMs "rust" over time. This happens in a ton of different ways: they sometimes rely on niche parts of the game engine that don't work well anymore, or systems whose code has been refactored or deleted since the last time they ran. Sometimes they were built in ways that cause problems with new or reworked champions (Sylas & new Mordekaiser ults are great examples of this). Sometimes, because of the rapid development cycle of RGMs, lots of duct tape and bubblegum gets used to make things work, and teams (including the Modes team itself!) go back and clean up that stuff once the mode has turned off, to keep things tidy. The rate at which things rust varies widely, too. Some modes, like Nexus Siege, have rusted so much that the fastest way to ship them again would probably be to start over from scratch.
Whenever we talk about shipp...
Read moreIt sucks we can't be super transparent about that stuff and only ask you to trust us but so it is.
Serious question: Why should fans of Twisted Treeline, Dominion, Nexus Blitz, and "abandoned" champs trust Riot with anything these days?
Why should they have faith in Riot when every communication targets the players for being too small of a base to cater to and not the company for failing to promote and improve the experiences? Why should they be excited for TenCent's answer to not getting DotA Chess from
Why should a Taliyah main believe that Riot's working on a skin for their champ when Lux, Ezreal, Akali, Ahri and other "popular" champs are getting shiny and pretty new skins every 6 months?
Why should any of those "abandoned" players have faith that Riot actually cares about them and not just the mainstream, easily satisfied, "Riot can do no wrong" cheerleaders?
Everything we do is a trade off and every trade off has a cost and we do our best to get the most value out of each trade off we make.
One thing we try to do to proportionally serve players is look at Games since Last Skin (one of many things, not the only thing by any means). It's a good way to combine time and popularity. Frankly, some champions just aren't popular...like by a lot. Taliyah is currently 1/10th as popular as Akali and 1/20th as popular as Ezreal. And at her best, the most popular she has been outside her launch (mid 2018), she was 1/5th as popular as Ezreal...and factoring in China it was still under 1/10th.
I do find it a bit harsh to imply the vast majority of players are easily satisfied and blindly applaud us. They are satisfied because we satisfy them because our decisions aim to satisfy as many players as possible compared to the cost. Everything players give back to us goes into making more things for them. That's how businesses work. But we...
Read moreDo you have some data on OFA and AURF, if they're the Modes that get significant amount of traction for a RGM
Last OFA as around 12.5% of hours by the end and ARURF was around 20-25% by the end of the last long run.
But in China, OFA was ~20% of hours and ARURF closer to 50% by the end of the runs. The global view is very important. NB was struggling to crack 2% in China when we turned it off. Odyssey at 3%.
We don't care about data, you don't get killed for running TFT and a RGM like Odyssey or Invasion at the same time!
You're right, the team that is working on making and supporting TFT is the same team that would do RGM stuff. I'm not in the position to comment with full context on that decision so this is more my personal understanding (not Riot's stance): Yes we could turn them on but that isn't free and as (un?)believable as it is, each mode needs people to work on it each time we turn it on even if it's QA for how OFA Sylas will work or something. It's not just a switch to flip.
And to reiterate, we intentionally moved resources onto TFT and if you don't like TFT then you'll feel abandoned and, honestly, rightfully so. At the same time we, as Riot, want more folks to enjoy our products. Having players engage with LoL and now TFT let's us fund things like new games that we are working on. It sucks we can't be super transparent about that stuff and only ask you to trust us but so it is.
Read morei moderated a pretty big subreddit for a good while and while i understand that it's not necessarily a 1:1 comparison, i'd recommend reading on subreddits like /r/theoryofreddit about how people announce changes in moderation.
a lot of these concepts you're talking about with EDs vs. people with legitimate concerns and everything else under the sun fairly closely relate to how people moderate subreddits or forums and announce decisions around choices in how the forum will be moderated.
for example, you could switch around some of the words in your earlier comment:
While lots of things we do are for you (who might love xyz content), some of the things we do are for the person next to you (who loves abc content) and some of the things we do are for someone you don’t even know.
however, it differs in that subreddit moderators look to improve the quality and popularity of their ...
that subreddit looks fascinating. thanks so much for sharing it with me.
If you don't mind me asking, what were the numbers like for odyssey?
Odyssey was similarly ~3% (a bit lower) by the end. Odyssey dropped off real fast though, as you can expect from somewhat limited content. When we look at other data it actually decayed in a similar way to a Path of Exile content drop (a premier PvE game) but at an even faster rate.
Thanks for answer, can you elaborate on whether burnout because of actual grind for missions was ever considered to be among the main reasons for falling hours of NB?
Not really because we saw it drive engagement when it was on. By the time we got to the end, it was such a small % of hours that there were few reasons big enough to save it.
All this being said, the group that did play the mode REALLY did play it a ton so I totally understand the passion.
Until Riot shows ACTUAL data. I don't believe a single word. Any person can say it didn't have the numbers. I want facts. Cold hard data.
I don't play SR because it's just not fun to me. ARAM and the other game modes were great for me. TFT I just can't get into and I'm not saying they should get rid of it. But Riot stopped the RGM that they switched out often for awhile for no real reason.
Hey it's me, the guy who does data for LoL and informed the NB call (as a hard NB main)
By the end of the first and second run NB was around 3% of hours. The second run was looking better until we turned missions off and then it went down to the same spot as the first run.
As for TFT, yeah it's more like a new game so I don't doubt LoL players will not care as much for it. TFT is doing great several month post launch, 20-40% of hours depending on the region and holding steady. It also added net hours to the pie whereas every other LoL-like mode tends to just move hours around save for ARURF.
What an interesting and insightful article, good job!
I'd like to pick your brain on one of the points you made if it isn't a hassle. Do you think that the majority of the Engaged Detractors are people that just don't have any faith in The Devs and want to stur up controversy just for the sake of it or is the majority composed more out of people that are just burnt out from the game and are just looking for something to pin it on, regardless of how good or bad the decision ultimately is?
I want the belive that the people that complain with very shallow argument are really just a vocal minority that just clumps the whole playerbase together becouse they think that everyone shares their opinion since it's the only logical conclusion? (Slight hyperbole just to get the point across since I'm having trouble putting what I want to ask into more concise words)
This, for me, is the million-dollar question: How do Engaged Detractors get made?
Obviously, whenever you get backlash to any decision, it's not JUST engaged detractors contributing. It's always a mix of people who have a legitimate concerns, EDs acting in bad-faith, people who just like contributing to the backlash for the fun of it, and people who may have misunderstood your intentions.
Each of those audiences is worth thinking about. I'll probably write more about this soon. Need more time to think it over.
I've done a couple of products tests for them (I'm lucky to live in the area). The team that runs those tests are really good at their job. I don't know why that fails to translate to final products, but hey, at least one department is rocking it.
<3
Honestly, you guys shouldn't even have done Common Eternals.
A lot of people would have been disappointed with Eternals being just special stats trackers, but at least some would have liked it.
Now, showing them tracking simple stats, like kills, damage dealt and whatnot, stats that we used to have freely access to, that's just asking for backlash...
Out of curiosity, what does the current Stats page not provide that you're missing?
https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/riot-games/editorial/league-stats
This the official new Worlds meme!
I aim to please :)
I think the problem comes from when you do things that aren't for me, and are actually against my interests as a gamer. Like when Dominion was cancelled, nobody played it really, it made sense but to the people who loved it this was an action against them and for somebody else. No matter how you tell that to someone it's going to suck.
As someone who loved NB, and played it and only it up until the plug got pulled, I hate that I'll never to get to play it again. And then when you say things like "We're not gonna let you play this anymore because you just aren't important enough." It hurts, there's no way to say that without upsetting someone.
Ahhhh, there’s just so much to address here. First:
Like when Dominion was cancelled, nobody played it really
Well... some people did. And they feel about Dominion exactly the way you feel about NB.
I hate that I'll never to get to play it again
We’ve said we’ll bring it back as an RGM at some point in the future, just not planning to make it permanent because it wasn’t holding players’ interest past the first week in either of the tests we ran (and also it failed to surpass ARAM in popularity even at its peak)
And then when you say things like "We're not gonna let you play this anymore because you just aren't important enough." It hurts
Come on man, we’ve never said that and never would.
Ok but, dude, people have been asking for a gamemode that is League (aka same gameplay), is fast and lets you pick your champ for AGES.
I understand that the playerbase shifts all the time with new people coming, players quitting and players coming back but you have to keep in mind that some of us are getting OLDER. People who have started playing before season 3 are likely to have families, full time jobs, responsibilities. I don’t have time to play 40 minutes of SR nor do I have the time to invest in a new game like TFT. All I wanted was Nexus Blitz.
I think you’re touching on something that’s super real. Few people can realistically stick with the SR ranked grind beyond 4-5 seasons. Hell, I’m personally gonna churn out into normals only next season, I think.
I don’t have any answers for you and I don’t wanna rehash the “why Nexus Blitz wasn’t hitting the bar” conversation right here but I actually agree with you we’ve gotta find a way to better serve players like you.
The thing i don't understand is that TFT isn't league of legends and why make league worse for the sake of TFT.
Game companies with multiple games make trade-offs at the expense of one game in favor of another all the time. Valve, Blizzard, Nintendo, whatever. They all have to do it, because they'd be batsh*t crazy not to. They just don't come out and tell you when they've done it.
That's what I'm writing about here: is there really value in talking in a "no bullsh*t" way about trade-offs and prioritization in cases like this? It's possible that it's not worth it.
I'm still thinking through it, tbh.
EUW test when?
If I could be more exact I totally would. All I can say is that it will be tested in EUW.
You don't have to provide one or even answer the question, as that is likely pretty risque, but as a believer would you say a no-bullshit communication strategy regarding recent controversial monetization options requiring uncharacteristically high inputs (e.g. prestige skins, Little Legends and Eternals) would have resulted in less backlash and more community understanding?
It's a really great question. Maybe one way to make those product announcements would have been to say "we don't believe everyone will want to buy these things. BUT some of you will buy it and love the product, and so we're trying to make something that those people will want to buy." Would people respect that? Hard to say.
Probably our advocates would understand, and our engaged detractors would take offense. I wrote a blog post recently breaking down how different parts of online game communities respond whenever developers make an unpopular change to their game. Link if you're interested.
For Little Legends there was one other no-bullsh*t thing we could have said, which was essentially "because TFT is being added for free, if we don't add a new monetization feature specifically to support this mode, then it might activel...
Read moreI mean RGM was the 5th most popular mode after Ranked, Normals, Flex, and ARAM. It's a lot of work for something that they probably aren't making a lot off of. TFT is probably the 2nd or 3rd most popular queue now. Of course they will use resources on that instead.
I’m a big believer in no-bullsh*t communications, especially when we’re making a hard choice about prioritizing one thing over another (like in this case). That’s why we wrote this blog post which says exactly what you pointed out, u/-Basileus.
But, if I’m being self-critical, I think there’s one thing we at Riot haven’t figured out how to communicate yet. It’s this: when we do something for just ONE part of our audience, how do we explain that to the REST of our audience in a way that resonates? The no bullsh*...
Read more