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Will the W finally become an auto-attack or will it remain this weird counter intuitive thing, as it currently is?
The bounces are not auto attacks because that brings lots of baggage with it (like on-hits, conqueror, etc)
Will the W finally become an auto-attack or will it remain this weird counter intuitive thing, as it currently is?
The bounces are not auto attacks because that brings lots of baggage with it (like on-hits, conqueror, etc)
Do we really need even more healing?
It shouldn't be so potent that it's warping in theory. Lemme know if that's not the case in testing. It's something like 2x Taste of Blood in early game and similar to summoner heal later in the game.
500 range is often not enough to get in range for all 3 aas even on live, which is why she’s building lethality no? Just like how Xayah built lethality cus no range to aa and set up e, and how jinx was able to take over the meta with 725 aa range. This feels like it misses why these champs are being pushed towards lethality by forcing them into Crit with ratios and Crit scalings
Yup the bet is that 500 range on a marksman is possible if you give them the right tools to succeed when they get in range. For example Samira. Lemme know if that's not the case in testing.
Is the auto reset kept on her w? I love that e procs passive. That’s going to be sick
Yup! W reset is kept. Thanks for the feedback.
the changes are super sick im hella happy
more of general questions but
- what was the main motivation behind tweaking spellshield to restore health and not mana? im curious how it will play out in team fights
- is sivir still tied to essence reaver mana wise? ik a lot of ppl had gripes abt new ER on her
Mana is removed so it's not determining whether she can press her spells. Heal because it should soften some lane matchups where the shield is not quite as good (like versus Zyra or other poke champs) and give you something you care about in actual fights.
We hope that Sivir is not tied to ER any more than Lucian for example. She should be able to opt into ER to not worry about mana, but should be perfectly functional with other options as well.
Was the new Sivir W code difficult or did you guys manage to reuse like old Ryze and Brand code maybe? Also curious why you guys want to reuse the Kog'Maw W power paradigm with Sivir even though the former rarely gets picked partially because of him being so reliant on his W cd.
Oh, the bounce logic was written by me (which means probably jank?). A little difficult but luckily I studied comp sci in university so it wasn't totally foreign to me.
Hi RayYongii, I’m excited to see one of my favorite champs getting modernized. In specific, I’m happy to see Sivir getting pushed back in the direction of crit builds. My question: Is Sivir’s identity as the marksman that pushes the fastest something that is trying to be maintained through this update? Personally what initially drew me to the champ was the ability to outpush the opposing laners to siege down a tower and I always saw the mana refund as an important part of that.
She should still push fastest out of all marksmen.
I'll withhold judgement till it goes live, But this seems incredibly impractical. Live Sivir might only get the 3 bounces per cast, but at 13 that CD is short. And Sivir being a short range ADC this allowed her to get into auto range, blow 3 fast autos and get back to safety if needed. No 500 range ADC is going to be able to just stand in range and auto the whole time to get those bounces. This update will be very powerful in silver and below and awful above that where teams will spread away from bounces more effectively. Mana cost and no refund on E will make her mana issues worse, not better even with the cost reduction of Q. As a Sivir main I could not be more disappointed by what I read in this update.
Please give it a few tries and let me know if you still have the same concerns.
Read moreIt seems you're trying to turn her into a scaling AOE/utility marksman, am I right in thinking that?
I can't help but feel that the current numbers will leave her on the weak side. She won't scale as well as Tristana (who even has some very good early game matchups to scale faster) or Jinx (who is quite safe while farming) for starters. Sivir now scales but has sacrificed any hope of winning any matchups in lane. A scaling champion who gets bullied is going to have a rough time. She also lacks the range of either of those champions so is far less safe throughout the entire game including when she's scaled up with items.
Sivir in general may run into issues with the identity you're pushing. On one hand her kit wants you to get into fights and kite (500 range, W bounce, E to block critical spells, R movespeed) but on the other hand she is going to be jumped on by people and get blown up. It feels like she may fall into the situation where she's rarely picked because a...
Yeah definitely. Specifically aiming to NOT make her a broad, pick-every-game champion. Those champions (in my opinion) usually lack counterplay in one department or another, so the goal here is that Sivir can do LOTS of damage in games where she plays well and/or picked her in the right scenario, but she's not a Jinx/Lucian who is picked every game regardless of context. In addition, 500 range should mean opponents have clear opportunities to stop her damage. This is some old-school design philosophy but that's my big bet.
How do you feel about infinite / refreshing ults because it seems to be happening with a lot of these updates and new releases zeri/Olaf/ahri and now sivir, is there an intention to make it so that team fights definitely result in one team running down the other team after getting one or two picks? They all seem to add mobility too.
For Sivir the hope is that her short range makes it much more tolerable and since it applies to teammates means you can rotate off a teamfight to an objective slightly (20-30%) quicker if you win. Each champion has their own reason for having a similar mechanic, but for Sivir it rewards teamfighting with her.
With the base damage and AD scaling decreases on Q and W, isn't her laning going to be atrocious?
I posted above, but we found that the power increase for W early game and E having a heal made it so her actual trade pattern was functional in laning phase, so her lane is actually comprable (or better?) than live. Try it out yourself and lemme know if you feel differently.
What is the dark sivir tech from playtests, have kraken + lethal felt better or are there better crit builds
Lethal + Kraken/Galeforce has been pretty popular. Collector and PD for legendaries
Probably because they want to make first half of Q more reliable, but not the second half.
Exactly. The goal here is that you're more likely to get the first hit (on live it's too hard over game-time) but not necessarily always going to land both hits, especially in close range.
the spell effects part is spooky for things like Aery, comet, and scorch in lane.
Because it increases her damage too much or because it allows her to land damage too easily? W the wave and if it bounces to an enemy and deals an extra 65 damage?
Also, sorry if I missed it but if she's too strong, what would do you think you'd hit?
Yeah exactly. W on the wave is extremely reliably going to hit people with the new range, so giving it more damage is a no-go during laning phase.
Probably cooldowns to be honest. The R reducing cooldowns means base cooldowns can be higher in theory. Wary of damage because she needs to be rewarded for getting good casts off.
This makes sense in a vaccume, but you have to to take into account that a 500 range adc often finds it very hard to auto attack more than 3 times. It’s very rare to see a crit Sivir free hitting the enemy team the same way you’d see a Jinx do the same. I’ll trust you guys on this one though, and I’m looking forward to the changes!
Agreed. Getting more than 3 autos will be the skill-check for the Sivir player that should be rewarded handsomely. On live, you're barely rewarded at all for autoing (hence lethality Q builds being the best), the goal is to not make it necessarily easier to auto, but make it FAR more rewarding to get them off. A strong team-fight performance should have positive results for sivir.
Hi 👋🏼
Sivir is one of my favorite champs because of her satisfying AoE and I think the changes look pretty cool!
I'm worried how she'll feel early game though... I understand that she'll probably be even more of a teamfight monster with these new changes but the mana nerfs and bAD reductions on spells make me fear that she'll feel pretty awful to play until like 2 items at the earliest whereas right now she's pretty enjoyable as soon as you pick up a few components.
Not asking for buffs or anything like that, I guess I would just like to know if you guys are planning on balancing her around having a bad laning phase to offset her strong mid-late or is the goal for her not to feel much different early game and you still might shift some power around depending on how the testing goes?
I posted above, but we found that the power increase for W early game and E having a heal made it so her actual trade pattern was functional in laning phase, so her lane is actually comprable (or better?) than live. Try it out yourself and lemme know if you feel differently.
What was the overall goal for this Sivir update?
It seems like her early game is going to be quite a power down for a mid-late game increase.
The intention is to have a solid curve where her early-game is weak but not tragic but her mid and late are very potent. The base stats and Q nerfs for early in particular were to off-set that W and E are far more effective laning spells now, so up until those nerfs she was actually performing too well in early-game for how strong her mid/late was.
Can you explain why you guys think the E mana refund was a bad design? Not mad or anything just curious.
Sure. It basically meant that you were forced to press E every X seconds or else your pattern falls apart. Telling players "You can't press your fun buttons unless you press this other one and put yourself in danger" isn't very compelling design and was one of our identified areas where she was feeling really archaic.
as a casual sivir enjoyer I'm a bit worried about the heavy nerfs to utility in favor of damage; I feel like her ability to quickly rotate and disengage with R was a large part of her value over other AOE hypercarries and reducing that means she's going to overlap more with Jinx and Twitch, who still have less utility but more than make up for that with the range Sivir lacks. Wont this mean she'll be more easily replaced by other picks when/if it's not a good meta for her, or if her numbers are just worse at the time?
The goal here is that she's head and shoulders the best marksman for damaging heavy-melee teams, above Jinx and Twitch and Aphelios even. That should carve a solid niche of "Weak against spread ranged carries, strong against multiple frontline"
In playtests, how does she not go OoM? Is she bound to PoM+Manaflow? Do you envision her building Tear? Tear+ER? Doran's Ring, Tear, ER?
Have you considered making the W bounces apply on-hits? Or, at least, proc spell effects? It's hilarious to me that a level two Sivir with a Jungle item just dies killing Raptors. Not that Jungle Sivir is on your radar, but it's one of only a handful of abilities that don't activate Tooth and Nail when it hits enemies.
The intention is for her to be similarly "bound" to PoM/ER as Jinx and Lucian. This is an area we are actively tuning however so those numbers may change.
Yes considered, decided against it. On-hit items are a scary system that may cannibalize her builds (titanic!?) and the spell effects part is spooky for things like Aery, comet, and scorch in lane. Overall, current functionality is more than fine.