Legends of Runeterra

Legends of Runeterra Dev Tracker




31 Jul

Comment

Originally posted by Taervon

I'd also like to point out that one of the main emotional factors in OTK decks, and why people complain so heavily about them, is the feeling of helplessness.

In a game like LoR where being able to react to basically everything is so monumentally important, anything that makes the player feel helpless should probably warrant a deeper look.

You guys are usually pretty good with that, making creative cards with interesting interactions, but I've stopped playing LoR because it feels like every deck is just assembling a combination of things I can't do anything about to Voltron me to death unless I have counterspells for days or hard removal pouring out my ears. Or play an aggro deck and just go face before they can assemble gigazord and punch me in the dick.

Spellshield is a big offender in that regard, it feels horrible to play against spellshield. Removal is already at a premium in LoR, Spellshield forcing out multiple spells from my hand makes the battle fee...

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This is very clear and well-written feedback.

I also agree that OTKs often become issues in card games because you feel helpless to stop them - so you rarely feel 'safe'. You often don't feel like there's a way to protect yourself, or enough warning before the danger. At their most problematic, it can feel like a boss battle in dark souls that doesn't have a clear telegraph for a one-shot attack.

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Originally posted by YourLocalArsonist

This is as good a place as any to post my little grievence:

I dont like that certain champs "punish" you for drawing multiple copies. This has been mulling around in my brain ever since the proposed Vi changes https://twitter.com/DeadboltDoris/status/1519040230023565313

The main champs that come to my mind with this are Katarina, Zed, Vi, and Zilean. I dont think every champ needs a good champ spell, and champs with "bad" spells for their champs spell can still sync up with there game plan (Taric's Blessing of Targon, Nautilus' Riptide, Shyvana's Confront). This spells are kinda trash, but let the champion progress their level up condition when on the board.

But Kat, Zed, and Zilean are uniquely bad. They are so bad that players will rarely run 3 copies of these champs in decks not specifically built around them (Kat is a staple x1 now, Zed used to only be a x2 in his aggro decks wit...

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Lots of great examples here. The rebalancing existing champions is always time consuming and can be disruptive for people as you mention, but either way its something I'll think about going forward. When I first got into LoR as a player I was actually surprised that the champ spells were collectible, because I assumed they would be the champion's unique 'special move' to me.

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Originally posted by Admiralpanther

In the spirit of being the mod who's always incredibly productive and on task, would you recommend your friend's mmo?

But seriously I absolutely adore LoR's loot system. The one kind-of interesting issue I run into (as a greedy little loot gremlin) is that at the top end the loot actually feels 'too free'. With any given battle pass (which I'm happy to buy btw, but they are a little long, I still have a day job y'dig?) I can complete any given xpac without even making a dent in my gringots-esqe draconic hoard of wildcards and goop (shards- me and the waifu call any given crafting mcguffin goop, just roll with it). Now I'm not a doctor but I think a 'goop sink' at the top end would be a good way to keep greedy loot-gamers like me more engaged. Kindof like league's essence emporium. The extremely dedicated and/or loot driven populations do have a reason to keep coming back and be excited because that loot system is specifically targeting players at the top end with some of th...

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I'd definitely be interested in seeing this as a full post. Also, the "unnecessary" context is actually extremely helpful for feedback, because it helps us understand more about what kind of stuff you usually enjoy and what your motivations for playing might be. I mentioned in the MMO example that it was quest-focused players that had the issue, becuase players that ignored quests and just went exploring didn't. Knowing the people complaining were laser-focused on completing quests was useful in figuring out that they needed to add more quests to the area to get those players interested in it.

Based on what you've said I think you might love a game called Warframe if you haven't checked it out already, potentially Path of Exile too. Both are awesome looters that work in very different ways. They're also both initially complex but I think they're well, well worth the effort to get into. Warframe in particular has this 'click' moment where you suddenly feel like a game-breaki...

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Comment

Originally posted by Sw1ft-fan04

I’d just like to suggest a confirm option on burst and focus spells, and maybe when playing units as well, especially with all the QoL changes the team has been making.

There have been a lot of times I’ve mis clicked on my phone, and there was no way to undo or confirm the action, and the fact that you can’t use Oracle’s eye with burst and focus spells feels bad when you can use it with other spell speeds. Some interactions can also be a little confusing and can mess you up at burst speeds. Just today I was playing a shen deck, and I made a misplay which was hard to understand which stopped me winning that turn. Shen was on 4/5 barriers, and I had an overwhelm sacred protector on board. So, using Stand United, giving sacred protector the barrier and +3 power would have won the game, so I selected another unit first, thinking that would level Shen, then I selected protector thinking it would get the buff because I selected it last. Unfortunately it was the other way around ...

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That's a really interesting point, and thanks for breaking out specific examples - that's always helpful. I think the fact burst spells resolve instantly is helpful for players to understand that there's no window for the opponent to respond to them, but the fact you can't use the (semi)recently added oracle's eye with them is a bit sad. Minimizing a chance for misclicks is always a worthy cause too.

The trick with options though is that the vast majority of players will always stick to the defaults in most cases unless the feature is a common option on many games and affects basic experience in little ways (which is why most games have volume sliders), so it's often hard to prioritize adding a subtle option like this over doing other things for the game that improve the player experience for everyone. Game dev is largely about looking at a huge pile of great ideas and figuring out which is currently the most valuable way to spend your team's time and effort. Just the other...

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Comment

Originally posted by janeer127

I would love to hear your podcast I'm totally into ttrpgs

It's on itunes and similar places. :)

I think the one on dungeon design is a pretty good standalone if you'd like a sample. There's also some recent ones on designing your own rpg system if you want to hear some game design focused stuff.

Comment

Originally posted by EdumBot

Mind if I highjack this to voice some of my grievances and concerns? I promise to write it as best as you just described. Right now, I'm feeling...bad? about voice work, content / purchaseable items, the game's image and champions.

First, voice work. Frankly, the vast majority of dialogue is just amazingly done. So it stings, when there are outliers. For me, these are Taliyah, Jhin and now Kai'Sa. In case of Taliyah, it f**king sucks that you hired someone else. You had Erica in the studio for Zoe and she f**king nailed it, as always. So how come you didn't bring her back for Taliyah? Not to mention that Zehra makes Taliyah just sound like desert Lux. When you have established characters and you suddenly change big parts of them, in this case voice actors, you create this cognitive dissonance. "To remain as true to her character and heritage as possible" is flat out wrong. And I could keep trying to come up with smart words and explanations, when I'm just t...

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I can’t endorse this level of hijacking but wow am I impressed with your attention to detail. I’ve never had so much fun reading a list of grievances.

Comment

Originally posted by GG35bw

I'm sorry but I can't say I agree with your example. If players said it takes too long to get from A to B then they mean it. Guessing and assuming they complain about the length because they're bored on their way is simply dumb. If that was the issue, they would state so. That leads to wasting resources on something that wasn't asked for and even if turns out great, will be ultimately unappreciated and overshadowed by not solving the initial issue (because the road is still long). I wish devs (in general) would stop with that attitude of "we know better what our players want" because, surprise surprise, in most cases they don't. Of course you can't please everyone, that's IMPOSSIBLE (and IMO, devs should stop trying to achieve that too) but offering a distraction for the knee pain instead of solving the cause is a no-no.

Again, I'm sorry if it sounds harsh but that's how I feel about the general state of gaming / dev-community communication nowadays.

This is actually an example from a real game. The devs made the change described and the players no longer said it took too long to travel between the interesting areas, because there was now interesting stuff to do in the middle area. It worked.

There are a lot of examples like this, but my favorite is probably when players called for a nerf in Wolfenstein because a gun was more powerful than the opposing faction’s version of the gun, but the two guns were actually numerically identical - they had all the same stats. It was just the sound it made that convinced people it was strong...

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Comment

Originally posted by DMaster86

I'll give it a try.

Issue: relics feels hard to acquire.

Symptoms: i have a ton of relics to collect and the pace is way too slow considering you normally only get 1 reliquiary per week once you finish the base champion quests, those relics enable interesting ways to build various champions so missing on the them feels extremely frustrating.

Potential solutions: duplicate protection and option to buy them directly for shards would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for the feedback. Noted.

Comment

Originally posted by ryansylvia

None of your business

Comment

Originally posted by LuvJonez

Alright lets give it a shot.

While I love how Kai'sa has been adapted to the game thematically I feel as if she's very oppressive to the point where most games I see her in my opponents deck I feel like I only have 7 rounds to win or lose.

Most meta decks are like this but what makes Kai'sa decks different is the feeling of impending doom I cant prevent through my play. Once Kai'sa drops I have one action to nullify the problem or else from experience she will often have the right conditions to attack twice and bomb my board state while also being protected by easy access to spell shield.

While I LOVE this feeling when piloting her I feel as if I've been cheated out of my time when going against this. Ive been playing card games for a long time and OTKs are nothing new but one of the biggest draws in LoR for me has been the action to action reactive element to it and Kai'sa decks feel as if they take that element out and the match simply becomes a race t...

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Thanks, this is a great description of your experience. I think the comparison of playing against Kai'Sa feeling similar to you to playing against OTK decks is particularly evocative and useful.

Comment

Originally posted by Chronicle92

I'm a game designer and I 100% agree. My studio really values QA feedback during the iteration and development process and I really appreciate that our QA team does this exact thing without being prompted to.

I would like to add that I think suggested solutions can be very helpful still if they're given in the proposed context above and with the addition of a why you want to see that change. What are the gameplay feelings you want to see more of that this change would help facilitate.

To the end when feedback is like this:

"When I am playing X position, I feel Y when Z happens which I do not like.

I generally enjoy when B happens. I think it would be awesome if we did C so that we got more opportunities to feel B."

(I'm being as vague as humanly possible because we are unannounced and under strict NDA)

Absolutely. Proposed ideas can be very helpful once we know the core experience or design goal that's motivating them.

Comment

Originally posted by ryansylvia

Tgt was one the worst designed sets. On one hand you have the mostly underpowered inspire cards of which few saw play. On the other side of the power level you had mysterious challenger which is one of the heaviest tempo swings available and gave secret paladin a coin flip wincon. Not to mention tuskarr totemic which would sometimes just summon a free 3/4 totem golem and win you the game.

Mysterious challenger? Who are they? :)

Comment

Originally posted by Scolipass

I will never not be salty that Murloc Warleader got nerfed because Blizz couldn't stop pushing Murloc Pally. Murloc Warlock was much more fun.

Much more fun to say too.

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Originally posted by Pike_27

This is really helpful, thanks for sharing.

Players are far from designers, they generally don't offer meaningful insights, though when they express discontent, something might not be right.

Having a somewhat open communication here and in other places does help, and posts like this are important. This is something the majority of developers can't be bothered to do, so I do appreciate your write-up.

Thanks. Your comment also reminds me of the other end of what I tell designers, "Even if a player's proposed solution doesn't make sense, that doesn't mean there's no problem or opportunity here. If a patient tells their doctor, 'my stomach hurts, I think I need a heart transplant' their solution might be non-sensical but... Their stomach still hurts. That's real."

If a player tells you they're bored, then they're bored. You can't quote game design theory to tell them they're not bored.

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Originally posted by Wexzuz

Professionally I work at a company with around 1k employees where I work in a team creating and maintaining a custom made CMS.

I have a couple of ideas for games I want to make in Unity one day personally.

Sounds awesome. Good luck with your projects. :)

Comment

Originally posted by legoatoom

Is there a way to send feedback anonymously? Right know I only know of this subreddit as a method for 'ranting'.

Hmm, anonymously? I suppose you could always make a new account. Directly? You could tag a dev on twitter or send one a message here I suppose.

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Originally posted by Vrail_Nightviper

Hey Dan! This is honestly a really helpful guide - as someone who's a non-dev myself, this is a great perspective on what helps (and what may be more difficult to interpret for feedback)
Wanna say, as a new folk to the community (joined about a month or so ago - you popped in on one of my posts in fact!) I love your participation in the community, and the interaction here. It's really refreshing coming from hearthstone, (communication was way less back some year or two ago in that group... and even then now it's different) and I super appreciate it - cheers!

That's great to hear. Welcome to the game. :)

Comment

Originally posted by th3virtuos0

So do you really have a friend in an MMO dev team or is it just an arbitrary example?

Yep, this is a real example from their career. I've actually heard them give this exact scenario in design interviews to candidates too, as a case study, which is how I first heard the story (we were interviewing someone together).

They're not currently on an MMO team though, this was a story from a few jobs ago.

Comment

Originally posted by LlesorMan

Great write up, appreciated! And super useful to me as I'm in game design school, setting up feedback forms is pretty hard actually.

On a related topic, where can we give thought out feedback like you just described? Do we continue to do it on the subreddit? The Discord server used to have a great feedback channel but I can't find it anywhere (and I even got some replies from Rubin! I like to think I had a tiny bit of influence in the game lol).

I realize it's probably annoying because out of every like 10 feedbacks only 1 is really useful and the others turn into rants, but I really think it'd be of great value to both you guys and the community to have more of an open channel like this again!

I'm not sure if there's a more-official place, generally reddit is where I read the most. Other devs pay more attention to twitter or other places.

Great luck on your game design schoolin'. I'd suggest when looking for feedback, ask players what moments stood out as particularly exiciting, positive, feel-good in any way. It's very usefuly to build your game around the best parts and replicate success. Some people call this technique in game design 'follow the fun' but it's really a more specific version of a universally applicable technique called 'clone the bright spots'.

The excellent book...

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Originally posted by TheSkilledRoy

Absolutely amazing post here, and I think its really awesome you went into such detail on the topic!

Out of curiosity, is there somewhere where we may read more of your thoughts on games design? Or perhaps more details on how players can learn to help devs in other ways?

Thanks. :)

I've written a good number of posts on game design. If you're a DM or GM for a TTRPG you might like my podcast "The GM's Guide" - it focuses a lot on exploring game design and narrative design through the lens of D&D and similar games. A lot of random stuff can be found on my website danfelder.net, though I only sporadically update it when I get an urge to post something. You might need to dig back a bit to find the juicy game design pieces.

There's also some people that recorded random talks I gave to colleges or local dev groups and posted them on their youtube channels.