GalaxySmash

Not entirely wrong, though I think the phrasing here leaves some things that can be misconstrued. When we design things we always have a specific goal in mind. I can't speak specifically to Sanguine/Hullbreaker, but for example when we make a champion we have a goal lane that we want them to be good in, and maybe another lane that we are ok with them also being good in. We actively want that specific champion to be good somewhere, so it makes sense for us to make changes to make them better in that role (and sometimes, worse in other roles). We can make the same correlation for items. For example its pretty clear we want Luden's to be a mage item, so if it was good on Tanks (somehow) it would make sense for us to make changes to make it either worse on tanks, or better on mages to try to reach those goals. Things get much more complicated when you really dive into the nitty-gritty, but that is a very simplified explanation.

Orianna was just nerfed in 11.8 with a specific target in pro play. We do not balance the entire game around pro play, but if a champion is extremely highly contested in pro that is the basis for a nerf as highlighted in this balance framework which outlines the how we decide to nerf/buff.

I talked with Psychopathic about this and reported this for him thinking it was a bug, GreaterBelugeWhale (comment above yours) did the investigating and found it to not be a bug because Nasus Q does not trigger ability effects, which is intentional. I do agree there is certainly a lack of clarity around it and similar effects though.

I had my start the same way, my friends all wanted me to play but I just said I hated MOBAs just because, then once I tried it I was hooked! Tens of thousands of games and the start of a career and I am still here!

I am really sorry to hear that. I have all sorts of eyesight issues and my eyesight has consistently deteriorated as I get older (and I am still way too young). I understand your pain and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I hope you find ways to stick around the community because people like you are what help make it great.

Yone jungle when

Pretty spot on take, When talking about popularity and new players in the jungle role, I couldn’t have said it better myself. I don’t think she will never be a pro flex but she is much less so, I think frustration and intuitiveness factor in here as well. Pyke mid doesn’t actually play the game like a mid laner normally does, he mostly ignores farm and roams, and when he doesn’t ignore farm he tends to just shrug off poke and never really engage in trading. Such an unintuitive play pattern tends to lead to much higher frustration levels. Pyke mid was also a bonkers winrate despite all its nerfs for a long, long time. These morgana changes arent nearly a drastic swing in winrate, and like mentioned before she hasn’t shown up in pro much so the concern there is minor, but likely will be monitored.

I just think jungle just has a lot of naunced complexity that isn't immediately obvious honestly. Things like pathing, clears, etc are all so insanely complex while generally laning is much, much more straightforward.

Yeah, I think something you could likely expect to see in the future is a borrowing of certain ideas from Wild Rift based on the success of them. I don't have anything in mind saying this, but it does just seem to make the most sense to convert what works for them into our game if it helps with things like player value.

Yeah in the end I think the boring answer here is that differing opinions aside, there are likely statistics and metrics that can be used to determine these things that will likely drive a lot of decision-making.

Agreed that I am no coding expert and don't know the workload involved, but that does sound like something that would be cool to add. I think its not necessarily something that is requested a lot so for that reason probably isn't high on our list of priorities.

I agree the exp system is likely a good place to look, exp is a super super fickle mechanic so I think finding the right balance there is tough, but worth looking into.

I think overloading players with a lot of things to learn is a fast way to overwhelm and potentially scare them off. Slowly trickling new mechanics in is a much safer way of doing it, which I believe is the approach here.

I think you are just missing a lot of context here is all. Jungle isn't nearly as unpopular a role in skilled/elite levels of play, in low elo it is by far the most popular out of all elo brakcets. And bringing proven popular champions into an unpopular role isn't that bizzare to me at all. The buffs are also done in such a way so that they will have a low impact on those champions' pre-existing roles as possible, so they aren't buffed as a whole so much as they are buffed specifically only for jungle. All this is also not to say that we think this is the one and only solution to solving the many problems that exist with the jungle, this is simply one change that is currently being made.

I agree honestly, I think its something that will likely be worth doing in the not so distant future.

Yeah its something that we have considered for sure, I think that jungling might be something a tad too complex for first-time players, but its something thats not off the table.

Haha that could be fun, I wanted Yasuo jungle but no luck :(

Yeah I think those concerns are reasonable callouts and something that we have kept in mind during testing. I think that our conclusions have been that these are acceptable risks that won't manifest themselves too often to be unhealthy to champion/game as a whole. I can't say for sure about Sylas being prone to poach camps, I think it carries some risk but the main risk of Sylas jungle is turning him into one of the aforementioned power-farming hyperscalers. I think something else I forgot to mention before is that Sylas is a bit of a flex pick for both mid and top in pro play, making him a trio flex pick carries some massive risk for furthering how pro-bound he is as a champion, which is also something we generally prefer to avoid.

I do wanna say that first those numbers pushed to PBE were clearly overtuned and have been adjusted and likely will be adjusted further. I think making jungle as a role more appealing rather than adding appealing champions is a good goal to have, though it is decisively harder to accomplish from a goals standpoint as well as workload. Any change we make to the jungle will always have big ripple effects so the rammifications will always be hard to foresee. This change would also likely cause a massive shift in pro so it would have to be reserved for mid-season or pre-season. All that being said I wouldn't count it out as a possibility at some point.

I like the idea, and personally I could see value in us doing this. I think a concern here is how fast it would be depricated because of how often the jungle changes. Putting a lot of time and effort into a high-quality guide and then having it be outdated a year later would feel pretty bad in my opinion.