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Mark_GGG

Mark_GGG



06 Mar

Path of Exile: Synthesis Patch Notes

Comment

Originally posted by Dex8172

So, Ascendent Slayer gets "50% reduced Maximum Recovery per Life Leech", and there are no new nodes with XX% increased Maximum Recovery per Life Leech? Not even for (duelist) Slayer? Then why did u/Mark_GGG use that modifier when he explained new leech mechanics?

My job ends with knowing what the stats are and how they apply. What values of those statsare available and where they're given out is done by the design/balance guys. I have very little idea where that stat will be available or in what values, I was just explaining what it does. I made sure to include each leech stat that exists, and chose nice round values to make the maths simpler to follow.

The example was supposed to show how the stats work, not a specific case that would definitely be possible in-game.

Simply Illustrated 3.6 Leech Mechanics

Comment

Originally posted by prospectre

Nah, you're thinking about it in a different order. Yes, in the formula it goes something like this:

(X(10% Bag) * (2% per second) <= (20% throughput)) * Y(% healing increase)

But if you think about it algebraically, you can simply apply the healing increase to the whole formula.

Y(X(10% Bag) * (2% per second)) <= Y((20% throughput))

It's a bit rough, but that's the general idea. It doesn't matter to the formula where the increase happens, so for the purposes of the illustration it still fits.

My point was that does matter when you look at the rest of the game, because there are other mechanics which care about the size of the bags.

Simply Illustrated 3.6 Leech Mechanics

Comment

Originally posted by pfSonata

In particular, you show the bags getting bigger in both 2 and 4, which is incorrect - these only affect the total recovery - multiplying how much blood is coming out of the combined tubes, they do not affect the actual sizes of the bags.

But the size of the bags is the total life gained, which does increase since you are increasing the leech rate per instance without decreasing duration. By necessity the bag would have to be bigger to sustain increased blood flow for the same period of time.

edit: ignoring the overall max rate cap, of course

This is the part where the analogy falls apart. In game terms, the bags do not get any bigger, but the bit where the pipes all connect up has more blood coming out of it than is going into it. Hence why I suggested the analogy would be a blood donor adding extra blood.

Simply Illustrated 3.6 Leech Mechanics

Comment

Originally posted by toxicsnek

Mark, one thing I still don't understand (patch notes are out, so you can't spoil them)

Do leech changes cap instant leech from bloodseeker and such at 10% per hit as well?

Instant Leech is still leech, it's still affected by the maximum amount from a single leech.

Simply Illustrated 3.6 Leech Mechanics

Comment

This is useful as a guide for understanding the effects of these stats, but it's worth noting this won't hold up when you start factoring in other things. In particular, you show the bags getting bigger in both 2 and 4, which is incorrect - these only affect the total recovery - multiplying how much blood is coming out of the combined tubes, they do not affect the actual sizes of the bags. The only analogy I can come up with that fits is a blood donor who's promised to donate their own blood to match a % of what you're getting from the bags.

This is notably important in the case of The Retch, which applies a dot based on each leech instance - those stats aren't actually affecting the "bag size", so The Retch's dot is likewise not affected (stat 1, which does affect the maximum bag size, does affect the DoT).

Also the last panel is incorrect when it says ES leech is the same - the maximum total for ES (width of the opening in your analogy) is 10%, where for life and ...

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05 Mar

How do you calculate the cap for ES leech? (with Ghost Reaver, Vaal Pact and Vixen's entrapment interactions)

Comment

Originally posted by hurix

So, in 3.6, do you determine the leech recovery target for each network frame?

From the Wiki of Soul Tether:

The second example is when a player takes chaos damage while on full life, and partially full energy shield. In this situation, any previously-created leech continues to recover to energy shield, while new instances of leech are sent to life. This will have the appearance of both pools leeching simultaneously.

These two pools won't leech simultaneously, as previously-created leech will "swap back" to recover life? Basicly making sure, life is always full before life leech recovery is applied to ES?

So, in 3.6, do you determine the leech recovery target for each network frame?

No, that would be entirely unecessary. If you have Soul Tether, when the "on full life" stat changes, that causes the stats for total life recovery per second and total ES recovery per second to both recalculate - and one of them (but not both) will include the total recovery from life leech stat in that recalculation, based on whether you're on full life or not.

So not every frame, only when the "full life" state changes.

PSA: The 5s max duration per leech instance is not a hardcap and can be raised with a newly introduced stat.

Comment

Originally posted by td941

Taking leech nodes makes it better.

if you want to invest in leech its not hard to just take the nodes and not worry about it.

All well and good to say "just take the passive node and see how it goes" but fact is that it costs you regrets to undo a choice.

The problem isn't working out which nodes buff leech. As you acknowledged, it's working out which ones to prioritise. If I have three points but there are five possible nodes I can take, which ones will help my build the most? It's impossible to know without understanding how the mechanic works, and it is a complex mechanic to try and understand.

And there will be some situations where in order to improve the leeching, what the player should be doing is not taking more leech nodes, but instead taking more damage nodes to increase the size of each leech instance.

I appreciate that u/Mark_GGG took the time to explain...

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In his "simple" example, there are five input variables (Maximum Life, % increased Maximum Recovery per Life Leech, % increased total Recovery per second from Life Leech, % increased Maximum total Recovery per second from Life Leech, and % of Physical Attack Damage Leeched as Life) from which three leech-related variables are derived (Life Leech Recovery Rate, Maximum Recovery per Life Leech, and Maximum total Recovery per second from Life Leech).

This is because this example was fundamentally not intended to be "simple", it was intended to be comprehensive - it intentionally includes everything that could affect the leech calculation.

Could it be just poor wording when it comes to "Leech Length Nerf"?

Comment

Originally posted by Dolandlod

Your Life Leech Recovery Rate is 20 Life per second (2% of max life per second). Each life leech instance will provide 20 Life per second.

Where does this even come from? It says it can be derived from the following facts, but I don't see any relation.

All leech instances use a recovery rate that's 2% of the maximum of what they're leeching.

Could it be just poor wording when it comes to "Leech Length Nerf"?

Comment

Originally posted by ZiggyZobby

Can you confirm that

You now have six life leech instances, put together they grant a base total Recovery from Life Leech of 180. This is increased by 100% by the modifier stat, so total Recovery from Llife Leech is 360 life per second.

This value is subject to the Maximum total Recovery per second from Life Leech, which is 230. Since 360 is higher than this, you actually only gain 230 life per second in total.

this part of Mark's post is wrong and should read instead

You now have six life leech instances, put together they grant a base total Recovery from Life Leech of 180 120. This is increased by 100% by the modifier stat, so total Recovery from Llife Leech is 360 240 life per second.

This value is subject to the Maximum total Recovery per second from Life Leech, which is 230. Since 360 240 is higher than this,...

Read more

I think he mistakenly applied the 50% increased Maximum Recovery per Life Leech which does not belong in this calculation since it doesn't affect the rate in any way.

No, I just still had 180 in my head from when I decided to add a range to the damage of the hits to keep it reasonable and calculated the (uncapped) life per leech at the low end of that at 180. The correct number is indeed 120.

Could it be just poor wording when it comes to "Leech Length Nerf"?

Comment

Originally posted by Cronax42

Thanks for the explanation. Does ES leech work the same or does it have its own mechanics?

ES Leech works the same except for the base value of Maximum total Recovery per second from Energy Shield Leech, which is 10% of max ES (Life/Mana use 20%)

Could it be just poor wording when it comes to "Leech Length Nerf"?

Comment

Originally posted by jronson

While I’ve got you on the topic of leech Mark, do you know whether modifiers to life leeched per second (now becoming total recovery per second from life leech) affects the amount of damage reflected by The Retch belt? Or do these modifiers only apply to your personal recovery from leech, and the retch only cares about the base leech rate and your number of instances?

Lastly, I’m pretty sure this is the case but just to check - if you are hitting one enemy and have leech which is far in excess of your leech rate cap, will the retch do damage based on the pre-cap or post-cap leeching? I do believe that the leech rate cap does not affect the Retch.

The Retch's damage over time is applied for each instance of leech, at the time that leech instance is created. So only things that apply to each instance of leech can affect it.

The new maximum amount per leech thus does limit it, but the modifiers/maximums that apply to total recovery from all instances do not.

How do you calculate the cap for ES leech? (with Ghost Reaver, Vaal Pact and Vixen's entrapment interactions)

Comment

Originally posted by Loraash

Well I guess this might be a little late for this but is Soul Tether going to have legacy variants with 3.6?

No. We changed what the existing stat it has already does (and how it's described).

Could it be just poor wording when it comes to "Leech Length Nerf"?

Comment

Originally posted by Etzlo

hey mark, how does this interact with the new soulrend, and essence drain? is the leech on the DoT damage also capped at 10% of max ES/life, or is it a special case due to being a DoT?

There is no leech on DoT damage. Leech is caused by hits.

Could it be just poor wording when it comes to "Leech Length Nerf"?

Comment

Originally posted by loldan79

50% increased Maximum Recovery per Life Leech

So this is an entirely new stat right? Because as far as I'm aware what we currently have for leech stats are these 2 stats

  1. increased Life Leeched per second which is becoming increased total Recovery per second from Life Leech
  2. +x% of maximum Life per second to maximum Life Leech rate which is becoming increased Maximum total Recovery per second from Life Leech

Will there be significant sources of this available?

Yes, the entire concept of capping the amount of recovery a single leech instance can apply is new in 3.6.0.

Ethereal Feast is another new Notable Passive from Path of Exile: Synthesis

Comment

Originally posted by Black_XistenZ

But if you add other sources of max ES to leech cap, these two wordings would make a difference, wouldnt they?

Say you have taken Ghost Reaver and use an elder amulet with the "+3-5% of maximum Life per second to maximum Life Leech rate". Thanks to GR, this is applied to your ES leech cap instead, making the base cap 15%. The original wording sounds like Ethereal Feast adds another flat 3% to this base ES leech cap, for a total of 18%. (Subject to further modification by the multiplier on GR...)

The new wording you propose here, by contrast, would make it sound like a 30% more multiplier is applied on those 15% base ES leech cap, for a result of 19.5% (pre GR multiplier).

Anyone else getting a headache? ;-)

But if you add other sources of max ES to leech cap, these two wordings would make a difference, wouldnt they?

This is not possible because all such modifiers are now expressed as % increases. There are no additions to this stat any more.

Say you have taken Ghost Reaver and use an elder amulet with the "+3-5% of maximum Life per second to maximum Life Leech rate". Thanks to GR, this is applied to your ES leech cap instead

That is not something Ghost Reaver does, either before or after 3.6.0

Could it be just poor wording when it comes to "Leech Length Nerf"?

Comment

Originally posted by taggedjc

What about modifiers just to life recovery rate, rather than modifiers to "leech recovery rate"? Are those applied after the leech rate is determined, before applying to the actual life recovered?

Such that if you also had "50% increased life recovery rate" in your first example, you'd gain 60 life per second for those 7.5 seconds, instead of 40 life per second? And in the second case, instead of gaining 230 life per second in total, you'd gain 345 life per second in total?

So to follow on from the example, let's say you also have 10% of Life Regenerated per second, so 100 life per second from regen.

Total recovery is therefore 330 (230 leech + 100 regen), and that number is increased by generic modifiers to life recovery rate.

This is not ideal (recovery rate modifier gets applied separately to more specific things, and thus ends up multiplicative), but before now there were things that prevented changing that, and now we can't change it without adjusting all the stuff that's balanced around how it currently works, so that's not going to change for a while.

EDIT: fixed typo on the regen number

Could it be just poor wording when it comes to "Leech Length Nerf"?

Comment

Originally posted by welpxD

How does the new "10% max life per leech instance" limit interact with the stat "increased life leeched per second"? Does Slayer's "100% increased life leeched per second" increase the total amount of leech from each instance, or does it shorten the instances?

The maximum amount of recovery is applied to each leech instance. The modifier you're referring to does not apply to the individual instances, but to the total value of recovery you're getting from all instances combined. It has been reorded to make this clearer because this distinction is important - that stat is now described as "x% increased total Recovery per second from Life Leech".

As an example showing all the relevant modifiers, assume you have these stats:

  • 1000 Maximum Life
  • 50% increased Maximum Recovery per Life Leech
  • 100% increased total Recovery per second from Life Leech
  • 15% increased Maximum total Recovery per second from Life Leech
  • 30% of Physical Attack Damage Leeched as Life

From these, we can derive the following extra stats:

  • Your Life Leech Recovery Rate is 20 Life per sec...
Read more

How do you calculate the cap for ES leech? (with Ghost Reaver, Vaal Pact and Vixen's entrapment interactions)

Comment

Originally posted by skkrrtskkrrt

Is the wording on Ghost reaver going to be changed? Since it's the same as zealot's oath and "life regeneration per endurance charge" node scales with ES but the wording says maxmium life.

Is the wording on Ghost reaver going to be changed?

Yes.

MAX resist change?

Comment

Originally posted by Having-a-hard-time

Resistance displayed as ∞ would look even cooler.

Just saying.

While true, I suspect we're eventually going to have to change to not modifying the resistance display int he character panel when you become immune. It's only a matter of time until there's some effect that scales based on the actual value (or uncapped value) of your chaos resistance, and thus means it's important to be able to see that value - or likewise an immunity to one of the elemental damage types, since those already have things that scale on resistance.

Ideally, in such a situation resistance would not be displayed while immune (there would instead be a specific line saying you're immune), unless you also had some other stat that scaled on resistance and made it display the resistance values so you could see them (alongside the immunity).

Could it be just poor wording when it comes to "Leech Length Nerf"?

Comment

Originally posted by wooser69

Mark I have a question. Life/mana leech is currently capped to recovering 2%/s per instance of leech by default. Is this the case for ES leech as well, or is it 1%/s to fit with the 10%/s maximum?

You are incorrect. Leech instances are not capped to 2% recovery per second - they are always at that rate. A cap would mean they can be at lower rates, which is not the case.

The 2% value is the same for ES as for life and mana. This means that it takes fewer leech instances to reach maximum recovery per second (5 instances of ES leech, compared to 10 for life/mana).