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Read moreThe thing is some glass cannon champs need to be able to kill fast or they're useless, full damage champs like Kaisa (my favorite champ and old main before I quit ADC) needs to be able to quickly dive and kill the enemy backline. In exchange once her ult shield is gone she's made of paper, Kaisa needs to be able to assassinate back line in less than 2 seconds or the champ is worthless and she builds full glass cannon items to do that.
The issue is champs like Nocturne, Veigar, Kayn, Cassiopia, Vayne and others building literal tank items and still being able to one shot or one combo ADCs.
Champs able to one combo people should need to go full glass cannon and be made of paper so you have a proper risk vs reward ratio.
When I played Kaisa if I dove the enemy and failed to kill them I'm dead myself 95 out of 100 times.
TLDR Tanks Bruisers (they need more tankyness in exchange for less damage) Mages (why on earth are mage items so tank...
The thing is some glass cannon champs need to be able to kill fast or they're useless
This was raised by several people as a response, so just to take a position on it: I completely agree.
Lux blasts you with Q-AA-E-R? Cool. Zed kills you with WRQE hitting double or triple Q? Cool. Zed on even gold kills you in one rotation with just his base kit? A lot less cool. Kha'Zix or Talon grabs bruiser items and burst kills an even gold ADC? Also a lot less cool.
There is definitely risk that burst champions get weaker, sustained combat champions (tanks, enchanters, ADCs, some mages, some fighters, etc) get stronger as the immediate aftermath of the changes - predicting the immediate balance in detail is basically impossible. With that in mind, a lot of the validation we've done has been aimed at making sure we have clear alignment on when burst kills are ok and also on what we'll do if certain classes are over- or underpowered. There'll b...
Read moreWhat a time to be alive.. a link on reddit to a tweet that has a screenshot of a reddit comment
For everyone that would like to follow up through Riot comments
Can't remember.. but I think it was that Spideraxe30 does screenshots for Twitter mostly not to conflict with Reddit's policy of promoting posts/comments or similar [not sure] but generally.. he mostly meant them for twitter audience. So, people, just find that comment on reddit and link it up in the post for ease of reading here
If I comment on this thread, does that take us full circle?
You guys have mentioned that systemic damage is a bit high, are you guys also cool with the amount of individual champ, I understand that that may be a bit harder to measure
Not ready to discuss yet, sorry
I remember a time y'all had discussed decreasing the time to kill because it was more exciting. Do you think there was an over correction type of thing where there's too much damage now?
We believe League of Legends is best when it is on average be fast-paced and exciting, but yeah I think it would be fair to say it has overcorrected towards damage, which is hitting away at clarity ("I can tell what just killed me" / "I can tell what I should have done differently") and skill expression ("That assassin/mage hit their whole kit, so they earned the kill").
We'll be talking about upcoming changes intended to slow the pace of combat down within the next few weeks.
Has his mini-rework really been that big of a disaster that they're already giving him 5ms?
That's a disingenuous thing to say.
A rework succeeds or fails based on how the champion's experience is. If the balance doesn't land right at the start, that's totally fine because you can tweak the numbers just like that. Calling it a disaster would mean something else.
A rework succeeds or fails based on how the champion's experience is.
I want to really reinforce this point. A rework's success or failure doesn't hinge on its day 1 balance. We'll be assessing the Swain update based on how it has landed with Swain players after we've had a chance to balance it, after the novelty has worn off, after players have had a chance to adjust. And the sorts of questions we'll be asking aren't "Does he have exactly the right win rate today?", they'll be things like "Is he engaging for Swain players when properly balanced?" and "Is it possible to balance this and keep it balanced across a wide range of skill levels?"
I think it is best to weaken the armor of Q, 25-35, change it to 15-30, the basic shield of W should still be weakened, but delete the 30% remaining HP cap, which is very reasonable, because Olaf It's not the damage that's missing, it's the toughness.
Right now the internal perception is I don't need further nerfs (big caveat we are still actively testing for balance on him, so that could change quite quickly), but the amount of armor shred on Q is very high on my list of things I'd nerf next if he does need more, for what it's worth.
After testing on PBE and comparing it to live, it definitely does feel more consistent vs monsters (on live it appears to only sometimes~ ghost), would it be possible to add it minions and champs however, or would that be a bit too abusive in lane?
Its abusive in a really low key way. We don't generally want to ghost champions in PvP situations when we can help it, or at least if we do, it's a lot of hidden/unappreciable power and we have to balance accordingly.
Live, wasn’t aware you tweaked in on PBE. Would you have the details on that since it isn’t in the main post
"Should feel better" is about as far as it goes. It's a bit of black magic stuff.
I just saw that you added some nerfs to him, outside of his current balance, could I ask for your thoughts on adding some more ghosting to Olaf since its a bit annoying to get minion blocked trying to pick up his axes, iirc he's only ghosted vs monsters
Is this feedback based on your PBE experience or based on live? I did tweak it actually.
Good. I like that stance.
Something that really scares me about the team when they make changes to champions is the siphoning of skill expression. Removing mechanics from champions especially ones aimed to ‘dumb’ them down, really are anti ethical to the design pillars of League. There was a dev blog when Scruffy was on the team about balancing new champions for the longer term. And in that article there is an emphasis of the team avoiding the removal mechanics. But when I see sylas e-Q and Akali e-Q removal, I ask myself, why even publish articles like these? Where’s the accountability?
I ask myself, why even publish articles like these? Where’s the accountability?
This just really stresses how important it is for us to get our new champion and VGU launches right. I don't believe we can make Ryze players happy - we're either going to have to seriously rework him, which will make some of them very sad (every update makes some players sad) or we're going to have to leave him quite weak for solo queue.
We're not infallible (I know you know this, but we know it too), we're going to mess a release up again, and the follow-up to one of those mistakes at some point is going to be that we have to strip out mechanics or 'dumb down' a champion. We have a principled belief that this should be a last resort, but we're going to need that last resort again sooner or later.
Thank you very much for your time u/RiotAxes! I just played with Zilean and found a nice example of aura VFX that I was trying to say with words earlier. Zilean's E (Time Warp) creates exactly that "enlarged" aura effect giving volume to Zilean's body, but in Zilean's case it's not a shield, but a speed buff:
From the VFX artist - that approach is generally cool but won't play nice with his R. If we were redoing the champion more comprehensively as a VGU (which he still needs imo, but he's not going to be in the next few), we could probably find a better overall solution.
Read moreThis is a feedback post, I will give my feedback about Olaf's shield here even though I know that nothing will be changed.
Visually speaking, this circular shield looks very strange, and out of the place. I know it's the easiest and most practical solution, but with so many circular champions/items shields within League, Olaf could be given a more unique shape.
The blame for this strangeness comes a lot from Olaf's silhouette. Olaf's stance in the game is very hunched forward; the axes are outside the shield; there is a lot of shield-free area behind Olaf; That is, it is visible that this shield does not belong to Olaf\*.
You guys could see the possibility of changing this VFX to look something like an aura shield-like Sejuani-Bristle (Fury of the North), Malphite (Granite Shield), and Olaf himself in his ultimate (Ragnarok), but instead of ...
Passing this to the artists. Not sure whether they're going to change anything, but they'll see it.
I have a pretty simple question I hope you will be able to answer. I want you to know it isn't loaded or anything and I am just doing it out of pure curiosity. Why haven't you focused on changing "problematic" champions for you yet? I am talking about Azir or Kalista here, just to give you an example. They are the way they are because of the fact they are way too oppressive in competitive setting so why haven't you tried shifting them towards the general playerbase instead? In Kalista's case, I find it super bizarre that she is the only character that deals 90% of their damage at all times. It just feels silly.
So the goal for the mid scope champion updates as a whole is to serve players of that champion, which means we're going to be pretty hesitant to do things that make players of those champions sad (we will not always get it right - but that's what we're trying to do with them).
Like, we might be able to let Kalista have a 1.0 AD ratio on her basic attack again and have all her spells feel good, but if it means we have to make her dash windowed instead of a passive, is it worth it to Kalista players? If we have to delete Azir's dash entirely, is that worth it to Azir players?
There's certainly some simple cleanup we can do on Kalista and Azir and they both are candidates for mid scopes at some point, but it's going to be really hard to solve the things that make them 'problematic' with these tactics.
(And please don't ask me about Ryze...)
This rioter is officially my favourite. Excellent changes. Thank you so much Riot Axes. Imagine if his playrate increases again because of this! Also do you know if Sivir will be getting an adjustment? u/RiotAxes
No news on Sivir, sorry.
Could I also ask if it is intentional that his R is capped at 2.5 seconds at extension, since that kinda reduces the fantasy of a potentially infinite R
100% intentional. A very long R is meant to be a rare, when-the-stars-align kind of situation.
We have specifically been testing to ensure that he has R casts that are shorter, similar, and longer than his live duration, and that decisions made by both Olaf and his opponents determine how it turns out.
Its probably not that simple. His early game passive is significantly nerfed and he also lost CD and early base damage on Q. That will probably have a significant effect on his early clear speed. His early dueling should also be nerfed by that (the armor shred on Q isn't super relevant early), though the lifesteal on passive might offset that somewhat, not sure. I suspect it will be a buff overall, but its not without some potentially impactful tradeoffs.
The bet is that between a meaningfully slower early clear speed and an R reshape that is both worse at diving ADCs and worse at running away when caught out, he has room to be balanced around solo queue first rather than pro play first, and if he's being balanced around solo queue, we have room for large buffs.
But forecasting balance on updates like this is hard and it's fully possible he'll need followup balance, as with any update.
Numbers look a bit overtuned but overall solid stuff
Just to speak to the tuning -
It's fully possible he's overtuned and if he is, he'll get nerfed (though its very unlikely we'd be able to discover this on PBE, where games are so wildly uneven). This update has enough change that it's just hard to forecast.
I will note that if we didn't have concerns about what he does in pro play, we would buff him substantially tomorrow. This iteration of the champion's clear speed is significantly slower than on Live (still fast, but much slower), which is a significant pro play impact, and while his R is way cooler scrapping in melee against other melee champions, he'll be both more kiteable when diving ADCs and less able to run away, both of which ought to be important for pro players.
The bet is that this frees us up for really significant buffs at every other skill level. That bet could fail - if it turns out he's still the priority pro jungler when tuned to reasonable winrates then we're in trouble...
Read moreMultiseason challenger olaf one trick here, i really love these changes, making him more tanky by making him keep his resists in a meta where there is so much damage is a good change. Especially in duels, a lot of the time you didnt press R just because it felt like it would just make you weaker by reducing your resists and removing the toxic part of his W that enhanced the healing and replacing it by other sustain tools is a GREAT change, allowing him to scale in the late game with armor shred is super great. But what's the idea behind increasing the minimum range on his Q ?
Ah, that one's kind of subtle.
So, if I'm going to give you the possibility of infinitely being immune to crowd control, that is very likely to result in situations where the fight is a perfect stat check - able to be calculated in advance - for opponents who can't dash away to break contact. The min range change exists so that Olaf has to forecast his position a little bit in advance, essentially adding counterplay because when he throws Q, if you move away from the Q, he has to choose whether to pick it up or not, and that choice has real consequences to the outcome of the fight from that point on. (Incidentally, part of the reason for adding armor shred on Q is to ensure that picking up the axe really matters to whether he wins the fight or not - don't want him just ignoring it)
I realize it's going to feel bad, but if I reverted it I think I'd also have to cap the ult at 7 seconds or something like that :/
EDIT: This is mainly talking about mele...
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