Please add Tooth back to the Jungle item, it feels so bad being forced on to Nail. I don't care that it says "Tooth and Nail" because it's lying.
So theres a secret mechanic where your autoattacks apply a tick of the burn. That being said we're still looking into clearspeeds, especially for machete junglers.
Jungler [melee] here, been on PBE. Jungle kiting feels fine. Scuttle shield is weird though, especially for Yi.
Yeah, scuttle is kinda rough for people with no CC. Its the same as killing old scuttle with no CC but now you can see how much worse it is :(
How has Yi felt in terms of items and clearspeed and stuff?
I have boss.
The jungle does not feel dangerous enough. It's too forgiving, especially with the healing buffs the jg items got prior? On top of all changes compiled it's just a watered down experience imo
The healing buffs stuff are all gone, its just vamp. That being said its very possible the healing is too high right now and we're watching it
That's fair. I can see six weeks being needed for this overhaul.
Would it be possible to see Brittle (Ornn's status effect off his W and R) be applied to a tank item or champ this season?
It's possible? We've tested that kind of thing before and it does do some interesting things, no guarantee though
will the kiting nerf really diminish skill expression within the jungle? this role has always been targeted to get dumbed down
You can still kite, its more that you can't do the like 0 ping jarvan kill of blue buff without taking damage kiting. I'd implore you to try out the jungle on PBE and let me know if you feel like it's really dumbed down, and what feels off
I'm working on the jungle so I can chat a bit here.
As a jungle main, you are my new best friend.
I think it's going to have to be an overall sweep of items first. It's nice to have Immolate on everything, but I agree it makes them a bit too bland. I wouldn't mind seeing 'bonus damage vs. monsters' used more to compensate and open up item and champ power.
There's definitely tons of unsolved and unfinished things in the system right now. Maybe tank junglers need a ton of help so we have to tune the burn bHP ratio up, or amp the immolate damage. Maybe immolate is too low right now so these junglers become OP when its buffed for lane etc. Obviously these aren't real examples, but its sorta a piece-by-piece process where as things get locked other things can get locked, and so on.
Note right now the burn damage doesn't scale after your item transforms [big bug :'(] which means some junglers who rely on it (like tanks) can struggle to clear as the game progresses
@RiotScruffy @RiotMeddler
Morning all, getting right to the point.
Four questions:
• Any data about jungler economy in light of the new item system? I often feel like I'm just wrapping up a mythic as everyone else is halfway into their second item, and I've been focusing tanks and fighters in jg.
• Should Rageblade be a mythic item? I feel the "double proc" effect will mesh too well with
GaleforceKRAKEN (frag it, I keep mixing the two), not to mention the additional magic damage invalidating resistance building. Maybe mesh Galeforce and Rageblade together?• Why do all the tank mythics have Sunfire built into them? It feels like it will have a negative effect on lane freezing, unless that is an intended effect.
• Has anyone considered whether Yasuo will break Collector like Ezreal broke Klepto?
I'm working on the jungle so I can chat a bit here.
From internal tests we've seen junglers stay about at parity with live. not having a super efficient, cheap, spike item can feel rough and in some cases can be a significant power down so we're monitoring to make sure the Jungle is still in a good place.
Some of the lost gold is recouped in stuff like not having to buy the smite portion of the jungle item.
With changes like this I would expect some amount of disruption and even kit problems (maybe Rammus really struggles in the new jungle for example) but we'll make sure the champs and role still feel good, even if it takes us a bit to lock down issues or get good data.
You're welcome
It'll slow some machete users down. You're trading 35 damage on hit for 60 damage over 5 seconds. 2 autos outdamages the DoT, so champions like Warwick or rengar who are mostly single target will struggle I think
ETA: Tested kindred clear and it did feel a little bit slower
So weird mechanic time. The burn deals one tick of damage every time you autoattack a monster, so machete junglers aren't as hurt as you would expect. (They still obviously are missing their prev item so we'll make sure they're in a good place once the dust settles)
I really, really appreciate the assurance. I've been worrying about this since the jungle changes were announced, so thank you so much for taking a moment to assuage my fears.
If you don't mind, I don't even know if this is something you can say yes or no to, but: Do you guys intend for Taliyah to be able to jungle, and plan on balancing her as such? I'm kind of always worried about losing my favourite jungler, so it'd be nice to at least know if she might fall out of the jungle at some point, or if Riot intends to keep her there.
I sadly can't commit to saying we'll support Taliyah jungle (I just don't know longterm) but I will state that she's fairly unique in the jungle which is something we tend to value. She's good there on live so we havent touched her recently but who knows what the future holds
I think we sort of can, because the omnivamp should heal off of the burn... But we have no idea how strong the burn is (I'm assuming it has a base value that they forgot to list, because if the number listed is real then it's literally useless early), and I doubt it adds up to anything near 6 HP per second. So yeah, RIP.
Honestly, after running some napkin math, I'm actually a little worried. I went through the numbers on Taliyah, and I don't think the omnivamp is going to add up to the healing from Talisman, unless the burn is sufficiently strong. Coupled with the kiting changes and the very likely significantly reduced raptor healing... I'm concerned.
There is a base value, yep!
Also don't worry about individual champs being in a rough state, the aim is to make sure if someone is struggling in the new jungle we address it so that they don't stay on the strugglebus.
What a wonderful start to worlds
Thanks for the response! It's good to know that you all are keeping an eye on him. Could you elaborate on what thresholds are being triggered, as well as why the public data (I generally refer to lolalytics) is so different? Is it a specific stat that's really inaccurate, or do all of the numbers look really different? Some people mention Chinese stats, incomplete data from limited API queries, etc., and I'm not sure what to point at.
I guess a similar question is: does the public have a way to get stats that are consistently close to your internal numbers?
Right now its top lane in skilled elo iirc, all of his stuff is edging close to the line. Can't remember previous patches.
As for the data, I wish I could tell you more i just don't have good insight into that process (not a data guy). We don't use Chinese data for winrates though, I know that lol. Not sure if there's a good place to get proper data externally, though generally things are prerty close, just edgecases or low playrate stuff can sometimes be weird.
Edgecases can be things with thousands of games too, sometimes on day 1 of a patch we see some champions spike or drop up to 3% with 10k games, but normalize as the patch progresses. (Akali after her last buff was up 5.5% when we first checked at like 12k games! She normalized to a little over 2 though)
Read moreJust a reminder: Ryze has been below the balance framework's buff thresholds in almost every patch this year (based on the public data). I made a post about that here.
As far as I can tell, he was only above thresholds in 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, and 10.7. All of these are from the pro bracket's presence thresholds, except for 10.1 which also showed sufficient elite bracket presence to avoid nerfs.
My understanding is that buffs are mandatory if a champion has stats below all thresholds. However, this hasn't been the case. Ryze has received only 3 sets of balance changes (10.6, 10.8, 10.13). Even if the balance team was being extra cautious (as they should) and avoided consecutive patches of buffs, they could have more than doubled the number of balance changes.
This isn't me saying "Ryze is weak", "Ryze is OP", "Ryze is handsome", or any other sort ...
Ryze is currently trending slightly above thresholds, though he is definitely weak. I expect we would have buffed him again (see 3 small buffs this year) if it wasn't so close to worlds.
Multiple buffs on a pro-facing champion when they're still not getting picked up generally means the meta is really poor for them or pros are slow to adopt, but both of those things can change fast, and if the champ isn't an emergency then it can be best to be safe around worlds and look into changes after. Ryze is also still considered, sitting just below pro-presence thresholds but not out of the game entirely in the last few patches.
The champion is bound to professional play and when he isn't seeing it, we like to give him some more power so that Ryze players can actually, like enjoy the game and stuff.
Also I'd love to shout you out for being in these threads talking about the balance framework and being invested in the game! Seen ya around here and there
My question is: Why do you mini nerf a champ that is overperforming in soloQ so hard? This will likely get him down in mid and bot a bit, but in the jungle this will do at best -1% WR. That will put him around 54+% WR in Dia2+ still which means still outside of the framework and a follow up nerf will likely come.
Reducing his Q monster dmg to 80% wouldn't have made him bad for sure and it hits his jungle without hitting lanes harder.
Because this is a fairly substantial nerf to his primary DPS tool and we didn't want to nerf just Jungle (note that the patch notes say that his botlane was similarly OP [it was even stronger than jungle]) and mid was very very strong as noted above
Really missing the mark on the karthus nerfs, they need some way to nerf his jungle/bot play, because his midlane was finally at a playable but not op state
Karthus was performing very well in mid too, just not as insanely as his other roles.
(It seems pretty much the same on internal environments tbh)
This is one of those weird "imagine if"s about the world, but I'm suddenly wishing for a montage of all the blue-side players who escaped being last hit by a red cannon solely by virtue of that -20 range, suddenly experiencing those scenarios being retconned all at once.
Somehow sensing reality changing around them, like Marty McFly feeling his own existence fading away, but with just an imperceptible shift in their all time kda. Rushing to check their saved highlight clips, shaking their friends to try to get someone to confirm that on May 15th 2015, in that 6th game, they did in fact barely escape, and it was in fact, so sick.
Same
Hello Mr Riot, I’m piggybacking to ask a question you probably don’t have an answer for and have no obligation to read nor answer.
Since this is obviously gonna affect the red vs blue win rate, will the balance team reassess the red team advantage where they have higher average mmr players? I know it has to do with draft pick but I also imagine this plays a significant role.
I'm not sure if the mmr thing is still in tbh, but we'll definitely see if this affects side winrates in any significant way and all that.
to think, if you were able to fix the bug soon enough this 11 year old bug would never have been found by the two best bug-catchers in the game.
so basically jungle diff or something idk
I have so much respect for these bug-catching monsters
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