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Nice rant, it's not pre-recorded. Have a nice day.
Nice rant, it's not pre-recorded. Have a nice day.
On the topic of compliments: obviously the cast on Sunday was great. I loved the colour-combo of you and Jatt, but after the game on PGL you were talking about something with the camera focused on you and I was suddenly struck by how far you'd come as a caster.
I don't know exactly what it was, there was something about the fact you'd just said how tired you were but were soldiering on, the camera angle, the way you were talking about the game - but I was watching on the sofa and let a little "f**k yeah Vedius" with a mini fist pump lol
Thank you friend, that means a lot! I hope I can keep it up.
Read moreI've read those replies - to me there's still a leap from your thought process and break down of the game to "they played better"but I understand that it's just a summary of a much larger collection of thoughts. "If they swapped comps" is to me a strange way to evaluate teams, for a multitude of reasons, but I at least see your reasoning. Ironically I feel like because you're a LEC caster and even want G2 to rock, you have to be extra critical to be ensure (to yourself) you're not being biased (or more dangerous online, perceived as being biased haha) but the fans don't really consider that.
I think it's totally fine to oversimplify and totally understand that at the end of a long stream it's more than likely someone would quickly summarise in a way that doesn't adequately describe their thought process. I f**king hate how reactionary people are on social media and wish people applied a little critical thinking and common sense before reacting to this stuff. Especially with...
Thank you for your comment and you raise some really interesting points.
I think what you're saying is fair and being able to stop and reflect one ones own biases is important in order to become better. I can only hope that I will continue to do better and people like you will call me out on it. It helps a lot when you construct it like you have today.
Thank you for taking the time to talk to me!
I do not disagree with you on game 1. I also think that in game 2 G2 had a better draft. But games 3 and 4, its SKT all the way in my opinion.
If you cannot utilize advantage that Renekton, Rek'sai, Ryze bring - I do not care what enemy drafted and how it works in the late game - you do not deserve worlds finals because you have absolutely every tool to smash enemy team before 25:00.
Well, in Game 3 I think G2's Camille outscales everyone on a side lane. I also think Ryze loses to Ori early so you can't exactly build advantages early unless you roam. And in game 4, I think it's closer but I still think it's easier for G2 to execute teamfights, I think the Yasuo is going to offer more later than the Varus and I think Qiyana get's hard to play unless you play around certain areas of the map.
I mean, I agree with you that SKT don't deserve to be in the world final, but I don't think I've said that either.
My issue with the current narrative is that fans seem to think that G2 played perfectly and it was all part of their plan
No. The issue of fans is that G2 outplays SKT and you say SKT plays better.
Now this doesn't just excuse SKT. They also did dumb stuff. Their ability to use baron was awful, they played so many teamfights really poorly and they have no idea how to use weak side of the map.
Exactly. SKT made a lot of mistakes and had some fundamental problems with their understanding of some of the most important concepts in the game. But SKT still "played better" according to what you say despite all these glaring flaws. What can we know.
If I take what you say at face value we just witnessed a clown fiesta and the bigger clown of G2 lucked out or just drafted more funny costume and just won. Oh, also obligatory "not to take anything away from G2".
No. The issue of fans is that G2 outplays SKT and you say SKT plays better.
G2 outplayed SKT in very specific situations after often putting themselves in this position in the first place when they didn't have to.
SKT made a lot of mistakes and had some fundamental problems with their understanding of some of the most important concepts in the game. But SKT still "played better" according to what you say despite all these glaring flaws. What can we know.
Because the context on how I said it means that, on average, SKT were making better decisions and fewer mistakes throughout the series. G2 however, played better when it mattered most and that's why I call them a better team.
This is why this is more of an argument around semantics more than anything else. If I had simply said, G2 made more mistakes than SKT in my opinion, but it didn't matter because they played better when it mattered most, wo...
Read moreAs for game 4, you have Vlad with free lane on top and Qiyana/Elise as a mid/jg duo. G2 still outscales here all things equal and their comp is easier to execute, but again - SKT's comp had many advantages in the early game.
From the fact that before level 6 they should have fairly easy bot lane, stronger mid/jg duo and fairly free laning phase for Vlad on top.
Yes, I think game 4 is an example of SKT going for more of an "early game comp" that had strong mid to late game tools but would eventually get outscaled. In this case, I believe it would've been expected to have G2 fall behind.
so, their baron play is bad. and you say they played better then G2 often times, while securing advantages (Baron) that they can't use properly, while G2 does not go for those advantages, but secures advantages (map pressure) that they actually can use very well.
how is SKT better securing useless stuff then G2 getting what they need to then finish games? they did make mistakes, many, but so did SKT. the problem is, Baron, small gold leads, all this doesn't matter because this series was never about that. G2 forced that series into a game of pure map pressure and won under the conditions they set up on their own.
Well, I felt as though G2 were forced to make these map pressure plays because of the situations that they put themselves in. If they had played parts of the game better, these situations wouldn't have been forced, but to their credit they found creative ways of getting out of these situations.
G2 forced that series into a game of pure map pressure and won under the conditions they set up on their own.
I also don't think this is really true. They won so many late game fights that they didn't actually start, they just outplayed SKT. Which is great, I'm not trying to take anything away from G2 here, it just goes to show how mechanically proficient they are and how good their coordination is. It was just a lot of things leading up to these points were either G2 making a lot of mistakes or SKT doing a lot of good things. The basics of it are, there were more moments throughout the series of SKT doing good things than there were of G2, but the...
Read moreRead moreVedius m8. Remember that when you don't give the summary, some people will complain about you not giving a tl;dr at the end of your analysis which makes the video "really hard to watch".
In the end, being a colourcaster for a game like league of legends is such a curse and a blessing i imagine. Because people play the same game as you and because the community is so heavily revolved around the internet, every word you say is interpreted by millions of people in different ways. The blessing is however, that you can actually commit to discussion with fans so easy as the distance between a caster and their audience is much smaller then for instance in traditional sports which us really engaging for the fanbase.
However. The standard you set in this comment is really unrealistic. Leaving things open for interpetation will always happen. I mean look at real life communication(for instance with friends or with a spouse). Even with facial expressions added for clarity, yo...
I much appreciate the comment my friend and thanks for chiming in!
So what you're saying is that G2 had better early and late game comps. Mid game was better for SKT but if G2 had executed early properly, SKT wouldn't have a chance to utilize their mid game strength. However, the window for SKT was so narrow, even though they could grow their mid game lead, it was hard for them to close. However they executed the mid game better than G2 executed the early (SKT played better). If the comps were switched, you would expect that SKT to have done better early and G2 to have done worse in the mid game so either SKT would have never given G2 a chance due to a strong early game or would have outscaled and won.
Is that a correct interpretation of your argument?
That's a pretty good summary, yeah!
Read moreI get that you're saying that SKT didn't give themselves enough options to punish G2 early before getting outscaled.
I guess game 3 is the game where I'm most inclined to agree (even thought they also made their own early games mistakes, such as Khan getting Wunder back into the game by unnecessarily dying), but I feel like for game 4 SKT had good ways to win the game. If they had punished Caps better, which to me seems very possible from the draft, or if Teddy/Effort didn't fall that far behind early, then they would have won that game, in my opinion. But both teams made early game mistakes, then G2 made less late game mistakes, and we have a G2 victory.
And then in game 1 I disagree that G2 played worse earlier on, and in game 2, the gold was very even 22 minutes in, and it was actually later game plays from SKT that won them the game. Idk, it just feels like saying SKT outplayed G2 left and right in the earlygame was a bit overblown.
I guess overall we j...
And that's cool! Remember that I'm not ONLY looking at the early game, I'm looking at a wide array of things, the early game is just what a lot of people are tunneling on. I think the biggest mistakes from G2 were the greedy plays they made. Caps giving up that baron because he overextended bot was really poor and didn't need to happen. Things like this happened a lot throughout the series.
I appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation with me.
The point of that comparison was to show a team can play better and still lose. The other important thing to note is how I defined what playing better league was, which is fine to debate. Kobe made a great argument which is the gravity of decisions at different points weigh more, and the problem with my initial statement was that it was an over simplification of what I actually meant.
So would you agree that in 2017. worlds EDG played better League than SKT? They snowballed every game early, but then lost late to SKT with some ridiculous advantages.
Potentially, I don't remember the games so I cant really say certainty.
The important takeaway is I'm not just saying "A team that gets advantages in the early game is the better team." I'm saying, based on the options that teams have to get leads, and how they execute around them, and how often they do it is a good indicator of how well a team is playing. And I think G2, given the options they had, did not do a great job. Even outside of the early game. I gave some examples in a different comment.
G2 showed a weak early game with late game compositions if they picked early game like SKT they would probably have a good early game as well.
Why is SKT having a good early game with a early game composition and a bad late game a positive and a sign they played better, but G2 having a bad early but a good late game while playing a late game composition not perceive as equal, it's exactly the same scenario.
But it seems you don't think they had strong early game composition when they had renekton almost everygame, elise, lee sin, le blanc picks that are amazing in lane and perfect to be played around.
G2 showed a weak early game with late game compositions if they picked early game like SKT they would probably have a good early game as well.
But as I said, I think they outscaled, that doesn't mean their early game is garbage. Every game, they had lanes that they could gain advantages through. Just because a comp outscales, doesn't mean it's only win condition is late game, it just means when you reach a certain point your champs are stronger than your opponents for whatever reason. Every game, G2 had an early game option where they could gain advantages yet they never found them because of poor execution. While in some games, one could argue SKT had fewer ways to gain early game advantages yet they were able to find them. Therefore, using this series as data, I am making the assumption that if the roles were reversed, SKT are more likely to execute better.
Read moreBut it seems you don't think they had strong early game composition ...
As someone with two different family members that are linguists, a love of fantasy and absolutely zero handle on any of this stuff; this was a fantastic read thank you!
This is a really insightful comment, thank you. Do you think that there was a similar issue for SKT with their game 4 draft? I was surprised to see them throw a lead like that.
I think in game 4 SKT didn't properly use Qiyana. You want to fight with her in narrow choke points or around objectives where she has access to all of her elements and her ult can be used effectively. They rarely did this and when it came down to siegeing onto G2s base, Qiyana was basically non-existent because there was no way for her to be used effectively inside G2s base.
Well, if you want to talk about game 1 - I'd agree there isn't a snowballing advantage to SKT, but also there isn't any scaling advantage to G2. The tradeoff here is Ryze as a realiable splitpusher on G2 vs slightly better teamfighting comp for SKT.
In the end, SKT dared G2 and lost the teamfight. SKT has won historically dozens of times by being only better at that one, lategame teamfight and I've never heard that an analysis that would point at SKT winning because of drafts or because the enemy team made mistakes.
Overall, drafts in game 1 are evenly matched and I do not see how SKT would win this game if drafts were reversed. It came down to execution.
The only game where I feel G2 had a clearly better draft is game 2. And they lost that one.
But I believe G2 also outscale SKT in the teamfight because of how hard it is for them to actually win those fights. For SKT to win, they need to land a good Neeko ult, for that to happen you need flashes to be gone, Banshees to be procced on Ryze, Xayah's ult to be on Cooldown, etc. It's also difficult for Teddy to get good damage down in these fights. If Teddy dives in, he's more likely going to put himself in danger because the only other person that can reliably follow that dive is Leona, and even that's a bit sketchy. This means that Teddy has to play front to back until Renekton is in a position where Teddy can follow, and I believe G2's front to back is just stronger because feathers go through a whole team and so does the Ryze E-Q damage. Ontop of the fact that Kled is a more obnoxious frontline than Renekton is later into the game.
Therefore, in my opinion at least, SKT were outscaled on a side lane and outscaled in teamfights. Their best option was to find some gr...
Read moreWhat makes you think if the drafts were swapped SKT would be able to accumulate the same early game leads and G2 would make the same early game mistakes when the comps and winconditions would be different? That doesn't make any sense.
I gave this context in a few other replies, I would encourage you to check them out and join in on the discussions.
I just wanted to stop by and say it's awesome that you are taking the time to type out such in-depth responses to each of these comments and on top of that engaging in discussion. You're a cool dude.
Much appreciated.
Read moreI'm not ignoring their mistakes.
The discussion around their draft revolves around the idea that if G2 picked similar compositions to what SKT did, and SKT picked similar compositions to what G2 did, G2 would lose the series because they would make more mistakes than SKT.
Based on what is this assertion correct, , G2 almost always makes mistakes early game and they manage to stabilize the game and start playing smart in the mid game.
G2 is a lot better than SKT at pushing their advantages, utilizing baron and closing out games, G2 is a lot better than SKT at playing the compositions SKT picked, so I think the notion that G2 would lose with a role reversal is not fair at all.
How can anyone know how SKT or G2 would have played with different drafts.
I'm pretty sure G2 opted for these late game compositions because they recognise the inability of SKT to push their leads and utilize baron, I think I remember Grabbz and G2 members discussing thi...
G2 is a lot better than SKT at pushing their advantages, utilizing baron and closing out games, G2 is a lot better than SKT at playing the compositions SKT picked, so I think the notion that G2 would lose with a role reversal is fair at all.
But there's no evidence in this series to suggest that they would. If we are in agreement that the early game was weak from G2 in every game. And if we agree that in each game, G2's draft would outscale, then it should make sense that if G2 fails to get an early lead with a comp that is eventually outscaled, the likelihood of them winning is now very much lower, right?
I'm pretty sure G2 opted for these late game compositions because they recognise the inability of SKT to push their leads and utilize baron, I think I remember Grabbz and G2 members discussing this matter that they feel no rpessure playing SKT.
This may very well be true, but it doesn't absolve them of ...
Read moreI love that Kayn is the brooding bad-boy of the group
You do realize that SKT had champs that were better suited to win early game? Maybe with those champs G2 would actually snowball properly which SKT failed to do.
Not sure how much SKT in LCK you watched, but I always claimed from their regular season that SKT is not that great. At their best - and yes, this was their best - they are a really good statcheck team. G2 is just able to surpass that in most of the games, therefore 8-3 this season.
GRF and DWG are generally much more dangerous teams for G2, but with big bo5 problems.
I disagree with your initial argument. If we take game 1 as an example, I do not consider Neeko and Kaisa to be champions that spike in the early to mid game. Perhaps I am wrong in my understanding, but I don't think it would be any easier for G2 to snowball this comp than it was for SKT. Continuing with my example, I think what SKT failed to do was use baron. Multiple times we saw them secure the objective yet fail to push that lead. This is a little more specific than "snowballing with your comp" for sure and if G2 were put in the same mid to late game positions that SKT were in, I have way more faith in G2s ability to actually close out those games.
I watched a fair amount of LCK, but I think saying SKT are "not that great" doesn't really tell you much about what they are good and bad at. I think G2 found creative ways of staying close after falling into early deficits, largely off their own mistakes, while also taking advantage of the fact that SKT couldn't use baron p...
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