Surface area. I just assumed there were more PoIs.
So, what you see on the Runeterra map page is approximately 1/6th of the physical surface area. There's a bit of wiggle room (mostly because of projection and the ocean, etc.) but that's the kind of ballpark we're talking about.
What are some characters/lore bits that you really felt that needed some thought on them?
I was very interested in mapping out Piltover and Zaun - their physical relationship fascinated me and I wanted to nail it down to something practical. I got the chance to do so, and I was so engaged by the problem that afterwards I did a design presentation on the approach I took. Pretty nerdy, but I love worldbuilding challenges and that was absolutely up my alley.
Read morePersonally I both agree and disagree with you. No team ever goes into the game thinking "alright, we're gonna concede 1st, 2nd, 3rd baron", and the fact that G2 did, was the result (like you said) of either their mistakes that they shouldn't have made, or good play from SKT.
However, while you're saying that G2 was good at thinking on their feet, and was having good responses to what SKT was doing, you're phrasing it in a way, that makes it seem like G2 players were forced to make something happen so they don't concede the map completely, and the reason for it working out was purely good execution - and that's where I disagree.
We've all seen what happens between 15-25 minutes when G2 don't do those mistakes - they snowball out of control and close out games extremely fast and efficiently. The reason for that aren't godly mechanics from all of their players (that's not to say they don't have amazing mechanics, because they do), but the way they prepare the map befor...
Great argument, I like it a lot!
Hey guys! I'm Riot Zephyr and I help on the Riot Report. Totally not Rivington's fault here and no leaks, just a mistake on our part when we handed Riv some notes. There's no new regional server leaked/announced. We just wanted to point viewers to the exciting event coming up in Saudi Arabia to celebrate Riot "gradually offering all Riot Games products and services in Arabic" (also stated in the 10th Anniversary Edition of Riot Pls). There will however be mobile regional servers specifically for the celebratory event. Sorry for any confusion!
Read more"But then we come back to the original discussion of "I do not believe SKT picked for early game." I also think in every game, G2 had early game options that they failed to utilize. The closest the came was in game 3 when Jankos not only successfully played through bot but also saved his top side. If you now look at my arguments with that in mind, does this make more sense?"
They picked renekton top in three out of four games also taking into consideration the jungle picks SKT picked to snowball through top that's clear meanwhile G2 never picked a champion that it's main focus was to smash the lane based on the lane matchup, SKT played way more for lane than G2.
Regarding the early game options they were there but if the fact that G2's draft works against them when it's claimed they outplayed SKT in the late game and teamfights the same can be said for SKT. In my opinion SKT had clear advantages in the early game, I remember Fnatic versus Koo Tigers season 5 or Grif...
I suppose so! Thanks for the discussion, I enjoyed it!
Wait so who is better skt or g2? I thought you said skt were the better team.
Nope, I said that I felt SKT played better league overall, but I thought G2 were the better team. There are a number of other replies that I've made that try to give more context behind this.
Read moreLet's take game 3 for example. Renekton, Rek'sai, Ryze, Kaisa, Leona vs Camille, Elise, Orianna, Xayah, Naut. I think we can both agree that Ryze and Kaisa should not be considered early game champions. However, against G2's comp, they probably get outscaled. Why? Well, diving onto a Xayah is hard for Renekton and Kaisa because of the Naut cc + Xayah ult. Orianna also provides mroe teamfight value than a Ryze does. Also, Camille's damage in the late game will be too strong for anyone on SKT to be able to 1v1.
SKT got a 2-0 Renekton top and did absolute 0 with it! They had a fed Ryze and Renekton in mid game and never got a proper split push set up. They f**ked up their respawn timings for second drake and gave G2 a free infernal drake when they were actually way stronger on the map. They got baron and then did absolute 0 with it by losing a fight they never should have lost.
SKT did tons of insane f**k ups in game 3, its actually b...
I didn't at any point say they lost because of the draft. I said the responsibility fell on them to be more proactive early and generate a lead. I also said it's harder to do that given the whole comp isn't designed to spike early.
I completely agree with you that SKT did a lot of f*ck ups on game 3.
Read moreI feel like that's only really true if SKT doesn't leverage the Renekton matchup though, which is by far the biggest example of an early vs. lategame disconnect in that specific game. If Camille and Renekton go remotely even then yes, G2 has a massive advantage as SKT can't really match the Camille anywhere on the map and just get outscaled in terms of their teamfighting. But that really shouldn't happen and is in fact the opposite of what was happening early. And if Camille doesn't get back into the game after her first disastrous three levels or something (which she really shouldn't have been able to do, and I mostly blame Clid for her being able to pull that comeback off since all he had to do was basically play river Rek'Sai top side and it didn't seem like he was doing that to me in the moment) SKT can just play sidelanes since a starved Camille won't be able to match Ryze, nobody will be able to match Renekton and all bot lane has to do is just not completely fall apart.
...
Yeah, I think that's a fair argument.
I think the only problem they would have is actually closing the game because the rest of the map wouldn't spike as hard at the same time. So while you would have a really strong side of the map, your ability to actually snowball would be difficult. If SKT could force a lot of fights and as you say, the bot lane doesn't get perma camped then maybe they could do it. But even then, I wouldn't define the whole draft as an early game one, even though I agree with you that SKT do have a heavily favoured early game top side.
Maybe I'm getting stuck in the weeds too much, I like what you wrote. Interesting to think about.
Read moreThis does clarify your stance a bit, but there is one last point I want to go over then. Does making less mistakes make you the better team? Or alternatively, is the strength of a team defined by how they deal with setbacks instead? You say that a lot of G2's more creative map trades were forced by their earlier mistakes.
But even if we assume that was always the case (which I do not think it is, it often simply came down to item spikes and timings that were better for SKT that they tried to fight around), does that creativity not make them the better team? They were able to take unfavorable situations and trade evenly or sometimes up despite being weaker in that stage of the game.
SKT on the other hand looked lost whenever something went wrong (e.g. when they botched their baron setup or when someone got caught), they had no backup plans or anything outside of their usual playbook. That difference in creativity, in being able to turn a negative situation into a p...
And this is just a weighting thing right? What do you weigh as more important when it comes to evaluating what makes good league of legends and what makes a good team.
I would agree with you and say G2 are the better team. I would vote for them to win that series again. My definition for what good league of legends is though might be different form yours. I value a teams decision making very highly, and I criticize more decisions that don't make sense. I really felt like G2 made so many plays or decisions that just weren't good, and while SKT had their bad moments and those mistakes were weighted larger, that to me was less important than the number of mistakes I saw. Even then, the gravity of some of the mistakes from G2 were pretty big. Like, I've referenced this a lot, but G2 conceded 6 barons. Some of them, were just great plays from SKT, others were really bad mistakes from G2 that could've cost them their games. Maybe my evaluations are wrong though, and maybe I need ...
Read moreThat's completely fine to have a different opinion.
To me its just funny how many of the analysts - and this started happening at MSI already when G2 won - suddenly are making arguments 'if A were true than G2 would not win'.
At MSI many said how it was the cheesy skirmish meta with Pyke and mages/bruisers bot and how G2 will fall off once meta normalizes and here we have G2 with Xayah as their best champ, winning through scaling teamfighting comps against SKT of all teams.
I mean for sure, that's always going to happen though. Some people won't be entirely bought in, other's will find different explanations for success, that's hopefully what makes this all entertaining. If we all thought the same thing, nothing interesting would ever happen.
I think it is not only about the number of mistakes by each team. But it is also about how the teams are able to capitalize on those mistakes SKT were simply not good in that area.
Also I am not sure that I even agree that counting mistakes is a good way of looking at what the better playing team is. There is a ton of historically dominant teams that were lackluster in many areas but really good in one area - like teamfighting.
How does one even evaluate legacy of such a team? Mistake counting is clearly bad way to go about it. Hell, we did not do it when SKT and other koreans were known for getting behind only to come back lategame by superior macro and teamfights.
That's fair, maybe my evaluation is a poor one, which I recognize and will consider for the future. I've thought these things before, and I will likely change my language for the future.
Read more"I think SKT were overall pretty bad at using Baron."
"There was a huge window here where they could've really created a lot of pressure, but didn't."
"So yeah, I don't think their baron usage was good."
"they just outplayed SKT."
"but the good things that G2 did were WAY MORE impactful as they actually resulted in game wins."=> "So what I'm saying is because the number of good plays from SKT was greater, I believe overall they played better league"
I understand that this may be confusing and my language could be better, but this is what I mean when I say these things.
Its not confusing its just horrible kind of logic. And a discussion that was never a thing in the history of leauge. If I am wrong name me all the series in the past were people discussed the better playing team losing the series.
I have no problem people discussing what G2 and what SKT did good and bad, but people trying to discuss whic...
It's happening because it's my opinion, and people don't like it. You don't agree with my definitions, and that's fine, maybe I need to change them.
I agree with the statement, both teams made mistakes, both teams did awesome things. In the end, G2 was the better team. If nothing else, you're welcome to walk away from the conversation with that.
I agree that those are obvious "mistakes", however I think that Kobbe (and Jatt?) pointed out something that i'm not sure you really adressed (apologies if it's already in another of your answer).
This thing is that, those mistakes were punished by SKT, but how many times doing this serie did those risky plays went unpunished and gave G2 a free tower, a inhib , a kill or just free waves or farm?
I find it hard to criticise G2 for those mistakes (even though it's what you are trying to figure out as analyst in your reviews) because they gain so much out of those 60-40 plays and it means that even after a couple of those every early game, they are still only less than 2k behind SKT and permanently apply pressure.
I'm convinced that if they don't go for those risky plays they are nowhere near as succesful, it's their identity as a team (and that lead to them being stomped sometimes because they can't stop)
I mean, I think there's a difference between risky plays and bad ones. I think G2 took more bad plays than they did risks. There are some examples where you could look at the play and go "Okay, I understand why they did that but it didn't work out." However, a lot of the time I couldn't quite understand why they did it. Even when they had information to make a more informed play, sometimes they didn't.
I think G2 did a lot of good things too. I like how in game 1 they traded an inhib for baron and how they played around that. I like in game 3 when Camille roamed to mid lane and they made that early play onto Ryze, as it helped Camille get back into the game. This play was inherently risky as Camille could've just wasted more time, but it worked out.
Most people like you, no one cares if you said one stupid thing. But this is a strange hill to die on imo.
I enjoy the discussion and I'm fine if people disagree with me. I don't think I lose anything by talking to people.
Read more"But as I said, I think they outscaled, that doesn't mean their early game is garbage. Every game, they had lanes that they could gain advantages through. Just because a comp outscales, doesn't mean it's only win condition is late game, it just means when you reach a certain point your champs are stronger than your opponents for whatever reason."
Agreed
"one could argue SKT had fewer ways to gain early game advantages yet they were able to find them. Therefore, using this series as data, I am making the assumption that if the roles were reversed, SKT are more likely to execute better."
In what instances did SKT have fewer ways to get early game advantages?
"So they had a strong top side, G2 also got Xayah, which is the strongest early game AD. They also had Ez + Galio, which was also a stronger bot side than yasuo + grag early on. So you can start to see how G2 would just trade pressure on one side of the map to the other, meaning SKT didn't just alw...
duo lane kaisa/leona versus xayah/rakan is an equal matchup
I don't agree with this. I think Xayah Rakan is much stronger in the 2v2, has more push and is harder to make plays on. The problem for Leona is if she goes in, she just gets knocked up so the Xayah can disengage and the Rakan can then jump to her. They should also have more waveclear early. This is a strong 2v2 that you should be able to play through.
Also Ez+Galio only advantage is they are able to push the lane faster
I don't agree with this either. Yasuo/Gragas is strong because of their ability to force all ins during lane. This is really hard to do against a galio and an ez, meaning the duo is forced to play defensively. G2 did actually want to set up a dive as well. Their level 1 play was G2 trying to split the map, which they didn't do properly because they didn't bring a sweeper. If you compare it to their game 4 performance you can see...
Read moreThere's a lot of if's you're using here. And you're only doing it from one perspective. If the comps were reversed and G2 had SKT's gold lead, G2 would utterly have smashed them because they have shown, all year long, how well they play with baron and how fast their games end when they get it.
Looking at things from one perspective while ignoring all other aspects is honestly so triggering. Not to mention that drafting, and champion pools, are part of being a better team and playing better. The draft is part of the game.
The bias just because it's SKT is so insane.
If the comps were reversed and G2 had SKT's gold lead, G2 would utterly have smashed them because they have shown, all year long, how well they play with baron and how fast their games end when they get it.
I agree with this statement, however my assumption is that they wouldn't have gotten to this point based on their early game performances.
Looking at things from one perspective while ignoring all other aspects is honestly so triggering. Not to mention that drafting, and champion pools, are part of being a better team and playing better. The draft is part of the game.
All I've done is use an argument to make a claim. This claim is that because of G2's over early game performance throughout the series, if they were in a position where they were on a timer and had to get an early lead, I would not have faith in them to execute based on what I saw. If my argument was SKT have no idea how to use baron, th...
Read moreTwo different linguists in the family? Christmas must be filled with useless trivia. Linguistic trivia the best trivia tho
edit: I can't spell
Oh yes, yes it is.
Read moreTo be frank I disagree with the claim that G2 made more mistakes even. I even watched LS/Nemesis cast of Game 3 specifically, which I think was pivotal for the series and made a comment about it. To sum up in few points:
- No team seems to have some inherent draft advantage. I think you even said on cast that game 3 and 4 SKT had draft advantage although I am not sure.
- G2 made two big mistakes. One was Wunder playing bad early game going 0:2. The second one was Wunder overextending and baiting Caps that resulted in baron at 23 minutes
Now look at some G2 good plays:
Jankos was very proactive early game. He managed the kill bot and also singlehandedly salvaged Wunder's lane that also snowballed on pick on Faker mid.
G2 smartly traded objectives, always keeping map presence despite facing ve...
A lot of what you say here I agree with. The thing is you make great points for game 3, and this is a fine evaluation of the game. I believe there may be more nuance because I think you overlooked the play from Jankos and Miky onto Faker in the mid lane which actually cost them a lot, but for the most part I think your perception of the game is a good one.
The difference for me is that I'm looking at the whole series. I'm arguing that for the majority of the series, SKT were making fewer mistakes and better decisions. So while it may be true that in game 3, G2 played better for more of that game than SKT did, I don't think that's the case for the whole series.
It's totally fine if you disagree that G2 made fewer mistakes in the series than SKT did. We just have different perceptions and that really is fine. As long as we understand each other, having disagreements is healthy and leads to good discussions.
Oh, both teams played 'badly'. As you would expect with 2 fairly evenly matched opponents. But those mistakes are not actually playing badly, but playing against a well prepared and mentally resilient opponent.
In 2017. EDG in one game had 9-0 in kills and 10k gold advantage and in other game they had 6-0 in kills with 6k gold advantage. In both games obviously they got baron and had total map control and still lost the game.
I do not really recall people or analysts saying that EDG played better League of Legends or making arguments that they'd win with reversed draft. General narrative was 'EDG played so well for so long, but you give SKT and inch and they will take miles.'
Narrative back then was - its because SKT is so good that they can turn a single enemy mistake from 100% loss into a win.
Well, maybe I would've had a different opinion to the analysts if back then, I had the knowledge that I have now.
It's all contextual and no series are the same. I did believe that TSM played better league than TL did in the spring finals and got into the same arguments with people that I'm getting into now. Sometimes, that's just what I think.
Read more"But there's no evidence in this series to suggest that they would. If we are in agreement that the early game was weak from G2 in every game. And if we agree that in each game, G2's draft would outscale, then it should make sense that if G2 fails to get an early lead with a comp that is eventually outscaled, the likelihood of them winning is now very much lower, right?"
But the evidence that SKT has a better early game than G2 is flawed the only way we could claim that is if both G2 and SKT picked for the early game, that didn't happen so it does not make sense saying SKT has a better early game because it can just be a by product of the strengths of their compositions.
G2 being better than SKT late game could also be attributed to them having drafts better suited for late game which would be a fair statement.
One thing there is plenty of evidence of is SKT inability to push leads and utilize baron properly.
I would say there is more bases to suppor...
But the evidence that SKT has a better early game than G2 is flawed the only way we could claim that is if both G2 and SKT picked for the early game, that didn't happen so it does not make sense saying SKT has a better early game because it can just be a by product of the strengths of their compositions.
But then we come back to the original discussion of "I do not believe SKT picked for early game." I also think in every game, G2 had early game options that they failed to utilize. The closest the came was in game 3 when Jankos not only successfully played through bot but also saved his top side. If you now look at my arguments with that in mind, does this make more sense?
I would say there is more bases to support a claim that SKT has a worse late game than G2 than there is of G2 having a worse early game than SKT.
Perhaps, my biggest counter argument to this is game 2, which perhaps clouds my judgement,...
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