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Super underrated series so far imo, but really appreciate the in-depth analysis and all the work that goes into making it happen!
Thanks so much! If you think so helping to spread it on Twitter, reddit etc when it comes out is greatly appreciated.
Super underrated series so far imo, but really appreciate the in-depth analysis and all the work that goes into making it happen!
Thanks so much! If you think so helping to spread it on Twitter, reddit etc when it comes out is greatly appreciated.
which is the confusing part isn't it? if leona, on paper, does the least damage in her lifetime why is she currently one of the more contested - and complained about - supports? Obviously there's more complex variables than raw numbers on her kit, but it's interesting.
She definitely provides more than raw damage. She provides crowd control and is a durable initiator, as is intended by her role. She's certainly quite strong. I'm not debating that. But I think people feel frustrated and try to find something to blame that frustration on. It's just that target isn't base stats after Runes Reforged.
Okay I'll agree that I'm not sure about the difference in tank support damage. I do remember release Thresh and how much damage he did.
I've been playing since season 1 and it just feels like everyone is doing more damage. I don't know if there's a way to quantify this, but looking at professional teamfights it looks like they are way more about burst and less about kiting and sustained damage.
Yeah release Thresh was stupid overpowered.
As for if the game truly has faster teamfights, I'm not completely certain. It can definitely depend on the meta (e.g. are there 3 tanks per team?)
You don't think naut/leo runes aren't boosting their damage?
Well, according to u.gg, the most common and winningest Leona rune page is:
Aftershock (25-120 damage +8% bonus HP), Font of Life (not damage), Bone Plating (not damage), Overgrowth (not damage), Biscuit Delivery (not damage), Cosmic Insight (not damage), +1-10% CDR based on level (not damage), +6 armor (not damage), and +15-90 Health based on level (not damage).
Meanwhile, this was Ignar's Leona page at Worlds 2017: https://i.imgur.com/fTMiN0u.png
You tell me.
Read moreI think leona is a great example of what I mean.
Leona in the past like you mention had more damage in the past and against squishier champs.
So why does she feel that she's stronger now?
Because of Aftershock, aftershock + her passive work nicely into frontloading all the damage at once.
Combine this with players overall being better at the game and being better at coodinating bursts and you got yourself the reason why things "feel" like they have more damage.
The damage might be the same or even less in the game but it "feels" like it's more because there's more damage being frontloaded instead of over time.
Granted that doesn't mean that that wasn't a thing in the past, champions like malphite are as old as time but always bursted you.
It just things like aftershock and the new sunfire and champions having their damage more frontloaded nowadays that makes the overall feel of league as more bursty.
I do wonder what r...
I know in general burst damage feels more satisfying and more powerful than damage over time. DfT was frequently more damage than Thunderlord's, let people took the latter. Malzahar, Brand, and Zyra are routinely overtuned, yet people think they're balanced or weak because they don't see them very often. Really they're just not as satisfying because the damage isn't as obvious.
I think a good direction, and one that's happening, is to reduce the number of DoTs but also occasionally reduce the burst and instead lower cooldowns. Getting to take more total actions, tune them to be satisfying, and find damage numbers where combat remains skillful.
For example, as we mentioned, Leona's burst damage is lower. Her actual burst damage is lower even with Aftershock. Instead, her cooldowns on Q/W/E have gotten lower. Certainly, her overall teamfight footprint is higher, but I don't think that's what people are complaining about. The quote in this thread is "getting one-shot."...
Read moreCompletely agree for level 1, Leona if she got on you at level 1 in the right matchup would solo you as an adc back in 2013. Now she waits until 2 everytime. Is there a Breakeven of where we're squishier now or that tanks are doing more damage now because of item scaling or something (maybe even just passives on items, less utility more damage these days - Zeke's for instance) Just curious
In the case of specifically when does non-linear scaling go below the old baseline? Around levels 6-12, but by pretty small margins. Mind you, this change was still back in 2014 so good luck remembering exactly how the abilities all felt 5 and a half years ago.
Yeah, pretty much anything that can be auto'd can be senna q'd, although the heal only comes through for you for things like turrets
You can target anything with Senna Q :) including things like her souls
Now call me crazy, but IIRC league wasn't released until 2009..? Thats why we just had that 10 year anniversary..
Yeah good call. I keep forgetting it's 2020 and so when I subtract 10 years in my head I hit 2003 instead of 2013
I love you Phreak but when this has been proven true, especially for adc's being instantly blown up, time and time again you cite math as a shield.
Riot also reduced adc base stats, and gutted shared xp two years in arrow. The non stop buffs to solo laners also impacted the game. Regardless how fed bot lane gets, they are down 2-3 levels at a minimum to a solo laner.
Damage is up in multiple positions and completely down in one. You can take personal shots at Codysun and say the math says otherwise all you want.
Riot reduced ADC base armor and compensated them with health. Champions like Leona and Nautilus deal primarily magic damage.
Like, I'm all for analyzing history and system changes and all of that. But when I can look up literally every single change that Ashe or Leona had and say, "Nope, in 2020 Ashe lives through a combo that would have killed her in 2013" then I really don't think this argument has a good-faith basis.
And to be clear, there may well be different systems changes that have increased damage across the game. But they're not in runes reforged and they're not in support tanks.
Then the issue isn't in the runes, it's in the new champions and item changes.
Regardless the true source, damage needs to be nerfed across the board. Perhaps an easy solution would be to just increase base and per level armor and mr for everyone?
So to be clear, if we're saying support Leona and support Nautilus do too much damage, and the only items they buy are Knight's Vow and Stoneplate, exactly how are systemic item and champion changes causing them to deal too much damage? Leona deals the same or less damage than she's done at any other point in her lifetime and runes are pretty close to neutral, too.
Now if your point is specifically Qiyana or AD Assassins are too good, then that's another discussion with different data and different history.
Read moreFirst up, I get your point about runes needing to be ~50% more powerful to match up, but I'm not sure if the math adds up, or it's at least difficult to quantify. The only old non-keystone mastery I'd consider to have the same value as a rune like Perfect timing is maybe Insight. Inspiration in general is a mess.
Also, they don't carry the same restrictions as the S7 masteries, where the (arguably) more valuable masteries required more points to be invested (again, another advantage of L: Tenacity vs Swiftness).
This leads me into Feast and ToB. I don't really see how I'm ignoring history given I said exactly what happened to it in the patch notes.
Most champions running ToB tend to proc it very safely with ranged autos or abilities IE Kennen, Akali, and Aatrox, plus I'd say its harder to gauge its healing due to its ratios. It's ultimately just made the rune way stronger for those that can run it safely, and not necessarily worth it for anyone else.
...
I agree it's quite difficult to math everything out in a general case. It's why I did a couple spot checks when the community was in peak "but my MR glyphs!" fervor. The math worked out pretty closely. But trying to contrast a generic 2% spell damage or 5% magic penetration to Scorch is just not reasonable on average.
When they changed the rune system I remember that MR overall was nerfed to match the loss of Magic Penetration runes which were run on a fair number of champs. However, by reducing the overall MR of champions to compensate, it buffed champs that never ran Magic Penetration, such as Nautilus, Leona, etc. Any magic dealing champion was indirectly buffed.
That much is definitely true. However, Leona was compensated her more common Mark choice of +armor. Nautilus, who was compensated +ASpd, got substantially less +Armor.
Now THAT argument could be made, but is combated via the stat shards we have today and the %spell damage and penetration masteries of yesteryear that champions like Leona and Nautilus ran then.
For example, here's IgNar's infamous Fervor Leona rune/mastery page: https://i.imgur.com/fTMiN0u.png
I'd argue today's Leona damage output is weaker than that.
I think what it really boils down to, is that tank champions feel like they do more damage than they used to.
Im purposely using the word feel because before, design on tank usually favored dots over straight damage (think amumu w sejuani old aoe thing etc, shen poking with q).
Damage over time will always "feel" weaker even if the numbers are the same.
The thing is that now everything seems to have their damage front loaded and so it feels like there's more damage. (Stuff like aftershook help with that feeling, even if aftershock has a delay for the damage it's burst damage).
I don't know if damage is the same or not (and tankiness), but the feeling that tanks can burst you is very real
That's interesting because I just got through compiling Leona's entire patch history. I don't have it for every other champion, and I'm not brave enough yet to go look at entire old rune pages so I'm relying on my memory of them being compensated fairly.
Leona deals less total damage per full combo, even counting aftershock for free, in lane, than ever before in her lifetime. By comparison, a sample target like Ashe has more health than she ever used to.
Even beyond that, there was a big sweeping change in 2014 that super beefed up champion base stats at early levels (our current level 1 is 2013's level 1.68, basically). So depending on how long you've been playing, champions should REALLY feel tankier in the early game than before.
I dont think many people would disagree with your logic, but i also think something is missing. The game has undeniably gone from 5D chess to a top-down call of duty.
Take lee sin, for example. Lee never used to be able to R-Q-Q people, it was always Q-R-Q to get the damage necessary for the Q execute. Now he just builds lethality and one shots non-tanks at most stages of the game, with little counterplay, where he used to fall off hard.
Naut and leo never used to kill ADCs in one rotation, now they do. somethings f**ky
Well I just spent way too long looking at Leona's entire patch history.
tl;dr - Leona deals the least damage she has ever done in her lifetime. Even taking today's Leona and adding Aftershock damage on top for free deals less total damage in a full Q/W/E/Sunlight combo than pre-7.22 Leona.
Read moreFirst, many players who were likely to face little magic damage early would take the scaling MR glyphs to handle mixed damage more effectively after the laning phase. Second, not only did champions get the compsenatory stat buffs, but they also gained more AD or AP through traits throughout S8 that S7 runes offered in the first place.
Also, it's worth noting a lot of the old masteries were very % based IE 3% more dmg to low enemies, 1-5% damage increase upon killing enemies etc. It meant that snowballing was only marginally increased and didn't amplify early leads as much/ make polarised lanes any more polarised.
Second, let's take a look at some of the runes with direct analogues. Electrocute: higher base damage and ratios than thunderlord's. Coup de grace: 8% against Merciless's 3%. Grasp: up from 3% health damage to 4%. What about L: Bloodlines/Ravenous Hunter as compared to Vampirism? Or Swiftness (a rune which required significant investment into the resol...
So one big thing that needs to be pointed out is that there are less total runes available. You get a keystone + 5 minor runes. In the old Mastery system you got a keystone + 8. By default the average rune power had better be ~50% more powerful. But also to your point, Feast required you to kill a minion. Taste of Blood requires you to hit the enemy champion, and thus risk being hit back. You can't just ignore the parts of history that disagree with you.
Now, power creep absolutely did happen when they added stat shards. They didn't take back the ~9 AD and Armor (or similar in scaling health/attack speed for other champions) when these changes came through. Stat shards more than made up for the Precision/Inspiration bonus stats and thus overall level 1 champion stats are indeed much higher than they were before RR. But those stats are not in raw base damage and magic penetration.
Awesome job man, always a big fan of your work and all your insight in videos, on the dive, and especially on broadcasts! Keep it up Azael!
Thank you both!
The discussion is that there’s powercreep/damage creep. The discussion is that there’s characters like Qiyana that can nearly 1 shot adc’s without ulting (Cody talked about this in the video).
Redditors and others may not know exactly where this damage creep is coming from, and they wrongly place the blame on other things (such as rune reforged). My guess is because it’s a lot more obvious when you get hit by electrocute/dark harvest and die vs. no visual effect when you had old runes but still died. But the entire conversation is still about damage seemingly being higher.
So, while you are correct in saying “it isn’t runes reforged, here’s the math”, it doesn’t address what people are actually finding problematic. What would address it is “the damage creep isn’t runes reforged, it’s X Y and/or Z”. Alternatively, there may not be damage creep at all, though I don’t think this is the case.
There are definitely way more assassin items than there used to be. Hell, Last Whisper used to have attack speed on it back in the day. If Qiyana had 2011 itemization she'd definitely deal a ton less damage. I think that's a reasonable discussion to have. As purely offensive items get more numerous and more efficient, good defensive items need to keep up.
I sometimes run AP+AP as Naut because I don't need the tank stats. I blow up the ADC and unless the enemy support is Leona or Braum, I blow them up too.
As a support main who primarily plays Thresh, Naut, Leona, and this season some Senna I can say that way more times than I can count 1v1 the enemy adc with 0 problem. I always read the patch notes, and mathematically true or not what matters is that it FEELS like damage is way out of control.
I played Aphelios in an ARAM last night, and the enemy AP Gragad could kill me in under a second, while the entire time I am cc'd by uncleansable cc, and don't deal damage back. Playing squishy champs doesn't even feel fair half the time because everyone lives longer and does more damage.
That's fair, and in 2013 you could have run AP Glyphs and Quints all the same. The math still lines up pretty equally to the old options. They generally hit the same targets here, even down to the 10% CDR by level 18 that mid laners used to run.
Aphelios is an interesting case of being one of like three champions with less than 30 MR at level 1. Dude definitely needs a Hexdrinker if you're going to survive a burst mage.
On a different point, I'd also argue that AP Gragas is a squishy champ himself and thus would be similarly killed by a bursty champion. Still though, I commiserate with the frustration of getting oneshot.
Phreak, while the damage/power creep may not specifically be from runes reforged - there is still a damage/power creep and that’s really the “issue” Cody Sun and others are complaining about. And you know that.
I mean if the discussion is "Riot kept buffing AP items like Deathcap and Liandry's and now mage damage is way higher than it's ever been before" then that's a totally different discussion and there's evidence to back up that claim.
But this discussion is "But Electrocute has a higher base damage than Thunderlord's!"
Hey all!
Really enjoyed doing this episode on Nisqy from a few weeks back vs Eika's Yasuo. It's sometimes really unclear how someone is able to get themselves into a position where they can make a solo kill happen in pro play w/ the observers following all 3 lanes + junglers so I wanted to highlight this game which features some really incredible movement by Nisqy.
Watching the game back I was so impressed with how often he was able to sidestep / dodge Eika's Q's and as a result put himself in an HP advantage allowing him to properly setup the lane for a potential solo kill. One of the hallmarks of a great player is the little micro dodges they're able to consistently do with tiny unpredictable movements back and forth and this is really shown off here.
The episode would've been out a bit earlier but we felt this content wasn't time sensitive and our content team is absolutely swamped with all the stuff we've been putting out this year! I already have a ...
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