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It's not cancelled, we saw a significant amounf of feedback from across all different platforms and we're going to look at our designs with that in mind as it was very valid, constructive feedback.
[deleted]
It's not cancelled, we saw a significant amounf of feedback from across all different platforms and we're going to look at our designs with that in mind as it was very valid, constructive feedback.
Since i saw some posts about it in the community, what're your thoughts on introducing 2-3 initial prayers and having a 3rd-4th prayer come from a boss type monster once you've unlocked the alignment? (Eg get 2-3 balance prayers when finishing while guthix sleeps, then unlock the final one by killing tormented demons, could be a tradable or untradable drop)
Edit: to go more off of this, that way you could even focus on adding lower req prayers and then hone in and craft a great extra reward prayer.
I don't think we're against that idea, but for now we are just going to focus on the initial Prayers and how they work with the game and current gameplay of Prayers.
Why don’t you just actually put in the work to fix the shitty course design of Polly/Prif then?
I don’t stick with Seers over Polly/Prif because of xp rates, I do it because I can click the entire course without rotating my camera or clicking twice between steps.
My response to another player:
"I don't think it's unreasonable that we could touch up the layout/interactions of some of the courses as part of this project.
The course just feeling bad to do (from a gameplay perspective) is very different to it feeling bad to do because of the xp rates."
Read moreI doubt you'll see this comment but thats Okay! the write up is really nice but to touch on your questions:
- Are slow skills the problem? Or are boring skills the problem?
Yes and No. if a skill is slow, generally there would be a trade off whether its higher yield in GP/HR, resources, whatever. the problem is when the skill is slow, theres no alternatives to do in the skilling method, and the pay off is just as bad, why would I as a player do something that I don't enjoy if skill X is slow, tedious, and has a terrible pay off that's just not fun, nor a good use of time.- Is Construction a good skill because it's fast?
this is a double edged sword. Construction is fantastic for the QOL it brings to a player, is it a good skill? not really. you're either stuck doing specific facets of construction, or Mahogany homes, and making 67000 mahogany tables isn't enjoyable, nor good for the wrists. and mahogany homes is just tedious.- Is Slayer a bad...
I did see the comment!
Your thought process is generally consistent with mine and it's why I posed those questions at the bottom of my ramble.
I think that looking at a skill's xp rates in a vacuum without considering other metrics is not a good way to evaluate whether or not a skill is good.
One thing I believe the team has to consider is that the reality is that Seers is also just the easiest course to run. Both on mobile and desktop, it requires no camera turns and is very easy to click the boxes. Even with boosted rates Seers is a lot easier to complete for hours than Poll or Relekka, so for it to be the course that sees a small nerf just doesn't feel good
I don't think it's unreasonable that we could touch up the layout/interactions of some of the courses as part of this project.
The course just feeling bad to do (from a gameplay perspective) is very different to it feeling bad to do because of the xp rates.
So now I have to level construction to make house tabs and move my home to Pollniveach (which requires me to schlep out there to even do) so that I can get a 12min total benefit to my agility grind from 60-75 from the current meta of staying at seers through 75? You do see how that’s a general nerf to agility training as it currently exists right?
The addition of a diary locked teleport similar to seers would inevitably make these locations easier to get to. Or were you specifically talking about getting to these courses before the proposed diary reward is unlocked?
I appreciate the transparency, but I feel like reducing the exp/hr just doesn't make sense and it's always going to draw ire from the community (buffs are better than nerfs). I feel as if a better solution to "why would I go to polliv over kandarin when the difference is only 1k exp per hour" should be addressed by adding the same scaling marks to the diary like kandarin has. If polliv is better marks and better exp per hour, then it's strictly better to head out to the desert.
Perhaps there's concerns with the price of amylase, but if we're also discussing amylase coming from more agility courses and also brimhaven, this wouldn't have more of an effect than those?
I don't dislike the idea of looking at the marks of grace a course gives as another balancing metric as a potential solution. I'd need to think on it some more and actually dig out some numbers before coming to any real conclusions though.
Why does agility need such low xp rates? It doesn’t hurt the economy having higher agility or faster training methods.
This is gatekeeping. It should be in line with thieving rates
I also don’t want to hear any argument about devaluing 99 agility for current players because you guys are already devaluing everyone who grinded levels and diaries for agility, which is way more players than those who actually have 99
The discussion about whether or not Agility should be a fast or slow skill was not really something we were planning to address with this project. We just wanted to create a more healthy meta and to make receiving unlocks while training it feel more exciting and meaningful.
Read moreWhat makes a problem skill is a combination of low exp, high focus, constant clicking and no real reward.
Agility is a mix of all of that.
Construction is good because it stands on its own with tons of rewards and its exp rates are insanely bloated while having a choice to take lower exp to save on cost
Slayer is good because there's tons of reward, variety and you get to make a ton of choices in how you handle it
Making a boring skill faster alleviates the burnout and fixes a few of the issues i outlined in the first sentence.
High clicking with more focus for higher exp is fine, higher clicking higher focus with low exp isn't.
Agility can't be afk'd so it'll stay higher focus regardless and most agility rewards aren't worth the squeeze, some shortcuts are great, but if you're leveling agility primarily for that, that's hardly a goal worth 250 hours of mind numbing.
For how much effort agility takes compared to most other ski...
Hopefully my response to another player above provides my thoughts to some of what you raised.
I think the reward aspect of agility is still something we should address and is completely separate from the xp rates of the skill. It simultaneously feels mandatory and underwhelming at the same time and shortcuts don't do enough.
Is Construction a good skill because it's fast?
No, but at least it's not both slow and boring. Agility is both.
I agree that making a boring skill fast is a band-aid solution, but it's at least something, instead of going, "Ah, it's too hard to solve the underlying issue, so I guess we'll put it off for a few years."
Also agility is only boring insofar that you're forced to do non-Sepulcher content. Sepulcher is amazing(plis add amylase to it).
Yeah, the slow and boring part is where Agility definitely sits. I still wouldn't want the change to just be "Make it fast and boring"
My hope is that the introduction of new content can resolve this issue. Sepulchre is only really meta from level 72 onwards (at the very least, it's not as fun to run floors 52 and 62 repeatedly) and I also don't think Sepulchre should be the be-all and end-all from 52-99 either, that was a very intentional design choice.
The proposal mentions a Brimhaven agility rework which I hope can scratch the itch of being fun while also providing more XP/hr at the relevant levels for those who want to pay more attention.
Hey, I'm going to try and explain the methodology for the process of reaching the numbers we did for the agility rework just for full transparency so that the full context is out there to be reviewed as to whether or not it is "good" or "bad". From this, I'd hope that the full context can aid in the discussion and help us get relevant feedback to review.
First up, the design goals were not to directly buff agility or nerf agility, we instead were looking at how content was positioned throughout the skill and to see if we could reach a healthier meta for agility as a whole and several things stood out to us.
I would say if you sign up for group slayer. Both players need to be off task and add a party system for it. Then “get group slayer task.” Would something like that work?
Edit: I would add brackets of sorts so low levels can’t group with high levels.
It could do, but then build on it and run into other questions like:
- Do we both have to spend points to skip?
- Can we even skip in the first place?
- Does it respect both of our block lists, or neither?
- If it doesn't respect our block lists, is that fun?
- What's to stop me from getting a juiced-up task and just doing it solo?
- If Player A doesn't have Dragon Slayer completed, do we both get to avoid Dragons tasks?
Just a lot of considerations in terms of the way everything ties in together and balances that make it a little tricky for the team.
Just double number of monsters to kill assigned and have kills from either player subtract from the total assigned. Job done.
Then questions become:
- Do Player A and Player B need to be on the same task?
- If not, how does the game even track that you're specifically partnered up with this person? Slayer helmet can't apply if they're not on-task, is it worth it?
- If they do need to be on the same task, can Player A share tasks with Player B?
- How do we prevent somebody sharing a task and soloing it for double-duration barrage tasks?
- If they can't share tasks, is it fun for both players to need to align on the same task?
- If they can share tasks, what restrictions are in place to stop Player A sharing juiced tasks with Player B and giga-boosting B's Slayer gains?
The actual means of engaging with the system and preventing abuse, catching niche-cases like using alts to funnel into a main's Slayer grind in an unhealthy way, are complicated to solve in a really clean fashion!
Other courses are getting diary-based XP buffs to compensate, namely Pollnivneach & Rellekka.
I don't think this is really stated. or at least how much you'd like to buff them
They're in the table, but can understand that they might feel a little buried:
Group Slayer isn't off the cards for the team, just that it's beyond the scope of Project Rebalance and probably wants to be a project all of its own. It's something we talk about a fair bit, but there's a lot that goes into it to try and deliver on the fantasy of you and your pals squadding up to dish death out, versus making it abuseable in a bunch of unintended ways.
Not off the table, just beyond what Project Rebalance is supposed to be!
I’m a bit confused by this. The blog has a lot of “in the future” verbiage for some of the changes regarding more substantial changes, but not everything. Are these proposed changes, or implemented changes?
Proposed changes, the team are not attached to any of them and are happy to chop and change! Not looking to implement anything until we've seen what people have to say about them all, and we've still got two more blogs after this one!
Does it work against KQ, Vespula, Verzik?
Depends on what people indicate they'd like to see in the survey - I'd be surprised for something like Verzik to be included (though lore-wise I get where you're coming from)
Sepulchre instances please?
Will ask the team about this one again and see if their stance has changed, I know it'd be super popular with a lot of the really skilled Sepulchre-enjoyers!
