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PhreakRiot



28 Feb

100T Cody Sun: "I think Runes Reforged added kind of a power creep or just extra damage for pretty much everyone. For example, you have ADCs complaining about getting one-shot by Nautilus or Leona"

Comment

Originally posted by InHaUse

Then the issue isn't in the runes, it's in the new champions and item changes.

Regardless the true source, damage needs to be nerfed across the board. Perhaps an easy solution would be to just increase base and per level armor and mr for everyone?

So to be clear, if we're saying support Leona and support Nautilus do too much damage, and the only items they buy are Knight's Vow and Stoneplate, exactly how are systemic item and champion changes causing them to deal too much damage? Leona deals the same or less damage than she's done at any other point in her lifetime and runes are pretty close to neutral, too.

Now if your point is specifically Qiyana or AD Assassins are too good, then that's another discussion with different data and different history.

100T Cody Sun: "I think Runes Reforged added kind of a power creep or just extra damage for pretty much everyone. For example, you have ADCs complaining about getting one-shot by Nautilus or Leona"

Comment

Originally posted by mcasterix123

First up, I get your point about runes needing to be ~50% more powerful to match up, but I'm not sure if the math adds up, or it's at least difficult to quantify. The only old non-keystone mastery I'd consider to have the same value as a rune like Perfect timing is maybe Insight. Inspiration in general is a mess.

Also, they don't carry the same restrictions as the S7 masteries, where the (arguably) more valuable masteries required more points to be invested (again, another advantage of L: Tenacity vs Swiftness).

This leads me into Feast and ToB. I don't really see how I'm ignoring history given I said exactly what happened to it in the patch notes.

Most champions running ToB tend to proc it very safely with ranged autos or abilities IE Kennen, Akali, and Aatrox, plus I'd say its harder to gauge its healing due to its ratios. It's ultimately just made the rune way stronger for those that can run it safely, and not necessarily worth it for anyone else.

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I agree it's quite difficult to math everything out in a general case. It's why I did a couple spot checks when the community was in peak "but my MR glyphs!" fervor. The math worked out pretty closely. But trying to contrast a generic 2% spell damage or 5% magic penetration to Scorch is just not reasonable on average.

100T Cody Sun: "I think Runes Reforged added kind of a power creep or just extra damage for pretty much everyone. For example, you have ADCs complaining about getting one-shot by Nautilus or Leona"

Comment

Originally posted by TheOmnivious

When they changed the rune system I remember that MR overall was nerfed to match the loss of Magic Penetration runes which were run on a fair number of champs. However, by reducing the overall MR of champions to compensate, it buffed champs that never ran Magic Penetration, such as Nautilus, Leona, etc. Any magic dealing champion was indirectly buffed.

That much is definitely true. However, Leona was compensated her more common Mark choice of +armor. Nautilus, who was compensated +ASpd, got substantially less +Armor.

Now THAT argument could be made, but is combated via the stat shards we have today and the %spell damage and penetration masteries of yesteryear that champions like Leona and Nautilus ran then.

For example, here's IgNar's infamous Fervor Leona rune/mastery page: https://i.imgur.com/fTMiN0u.png

I'd argue today's Leona damage output is weaker than that.

100T Cody Sun: "I think Runes Reforged added kind of a power creep or just extra damage for pretty much everyone. For example, you have ADCs complaining about getting one-shot by Nautilus or Leona"

Comment

Originally posted by josluivivgar

I think what it really boils down to, is that tank champions feel like they do more damage than they used to.

Im purposely using the word feel because before, design on tank usually favored dots over straight damage (think amumu w sejuani old aoe thing etc, shen poking with q).

Damage over time will always "feel" weaker even if the numbers are the same.

The thing is that now everything seems to have their damage front loaded and so it feels like there's more damage. (Stuff like aftershook help with that feeling, even if aftershock has a delay for the damage it's burst damage).

I don't know if damage is the same or not (and tankiness), but the feeling that tanks can burst you is very real

That's interesting because I just got through compiling Leona's entire patch history. I don't have it for every other champion, and I'm not brave enough yet to go look at entire old rune pages so I'm relying on my memory of them being compensated fairly.

Leona deals less total damage per full combo, even counting aftershock for free, in lane, than ever before in her lifetime. By comparison, a sample target like Ashe has more health than she ever used to.

Even beyond that, there was a big sweeping change in 2014 that super beefed up champion base stats at early levels (our current level 1 is 2013's level 1.68, basically). So depending on how long you've been playing, champions should REALLY feel tankier in the early game than before.

100T Cody Sun: "I think Runes Reforged added kind of a power creep or just extra damage for pretty much everyone. For example, you have ADCs complaining about getting one-shot by Nautilus or Leona"

Comment

Originally posted by tpst

I dont think many people would disagree with your logic, but i also think something is missing. The game has undeniably gone from 5D chess to a top-down call of duty.

Take lee sin, for example. Lee never used to be able to R-Q-Q people, it was always Q-R-Q to get the damage necessary for the Q execute. Now he just builds lethality and one shots non-tanks at most stages of the game, with little counterplay, where he used to fall off hard.

Naut and leo never used to kill ADCs in one rotation, now they do. somethings f**ky

Well I just spent way too long looking at Leona's entire patch history.

tl;dr - Leona deals the least damage she has ever done in her lifetime. Even taking today's Leona and adding Aftershock damage on top for free deals less total damage in a full Q/W/E/Sunlight combo than pre-7.22 Leona.


27 Feb

100T Cody Sun: "I think Runes Reforged added kind of a power creep or just extra damage for pretty much everyone. For example, you have ADCs complaining about getting one-shot by Nautilus or Leona"

Comment

Originally posted by mcasterix123

First, many players who were likely to face little magic damage early would take the scaling MR glyphs to handle mixed damage more effectively after the laning phase. Second, not only did champions get the compsenatory stat buffs, but they also gained more AD or AP through traits throughout S8 that S7 runes offered in the first place.

Also, it's worth noting a lot of the old masteries were very % based IE 3% more dmg to low enemies, 1-5% damage increase upon killing enemies etc. It meant that snowballing was only marginally increased and didn't amplify early leads as much/ make polarised lanes any more polarised.

Second, let's take a look at some of the runes with direct analogues. Electrocute: higher base damage and ratios than thunderlord's. Coup de grace: 8% against Merciless's 3%. Grasp: up from 3% health damage to 4%. What about L: Bloodlines/Ravenous Hunter as compared to Vampirism? Or Swiftness (a rune which required significant investment into the resol...

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So one big thing that needs to be pointed out is that there are less total runes available. You get a keystone + 5 minor runes. In the old Mastery system you got a keystone + 8. By default the average rune power had better be ~50% more powerful. But also to your point, Feast required you to kill a minion. Taste of Blood requires you to hit the enemy champion, and thus risk being hit back. You can't just ignore the parts of history that disagree with you.

Now, power creep absolutely did happen when they added stat shards. They didn't take back the ~9 AD and Armor (or similar in scaling health/attack speed for other champions) when these changes came through. Stat shards more than made up for the Precision/Inspiration bonus stats and thus overall level 1 champion stats are indeed much higher than they were before RR. But those stats are not in raw base damage and magic penetration.

100T Cody Sun: "I think Runes Reforged added kind of a power creep or just extra damage for pretty much everyone. For example, you have ADCs complaining about getting one-shot by Nautilus or Leona"

Comment

Originally posted by imArsenals

The discussion is that there’s powercreep/damage creep. The discussion is that there’s characters like Qiyana that can nearly 1 shot adc’s without ulting (Cody talked about this in the video).

Redditors and others may not know exactly where this damage creep is coming from, and they wrongly place the blame on other things (such as rune reforged). My guess is because it’s a lot more obvious when you get hit by electrocute/dark harvest and die vs. no visual effect when you had old runes but still died. But the entire conversation is still about damage seemingly being higher.

So, while you are correct in saying “it isn’t runes reforged, here’s the math”, it doesn’t address what people are actually finding problematic. What would address it is “the damage creep isn’t runes reforged, it’s X Y and/or Z”. Alternatively, there may not be damage creep at all, though I don’t think this is the case.

There are definitely way more assassin items than there used to be. Hell, Last Whisper used to have attack speed on it back in the day. If Qiyana had 2011 itemization she'd definitely deal a ton less damage. I think that's a reasonable discussion to have. As purely offensive items get more numerous and more efficient, good defensive items need to keep up.

100T Cody Sun: "I think Runes Reforged added kind of a power creep or just extra damage for pretty much everyone. For example, you have ADCs complaining about getting one-shot by Nautilus or Leona"

Comment

Originally posted by Sgtvangelder

I sometimes run AP+AP as Naut because I don't need the tank stats. I blow up the ADC and unless the enemy support is Leona or Braum, I blow them up too.

As a support main who primarily plays Thresh, Naut, Leona, and this season some Senna I can say that way more times than I can count 1v1 the enemy adc with 0 problem. I always read the patch notes, and mathematically true or not what matters is that it FEELS like damage is way out of control.

I played Aphelios in an ARAM last night, and the enemy AP Gragad could kill me in under a second, while the entire time I am cc'd by uncleansable cc, and don't deal damage back. Playing squishy champs doesn't even feel fair half the time because everyone lives longer and does more damage.

That's fair, and in 2013 you could have run AP Glyphs and Quints all the same. The math still lines up pretty equally to the old options. They generally hit the same targets here, even down to the 10% CDR by level 18 that mid laners used to run.

Aphelios is an interesting case of being one of like three champions with less than 30 MR at level 1. Dude definitely needs a Hexdrinker if you're going to survive a burst mage.

On a different point, I'd also argue that AP Gragas is a squishy champ himself and thus would be similarly killed by a bursty champion. Still though, I commiserate with the frustration of getting oneshot.

100T Cody Sun: "I think Runes Reforged added kind of a power creep or just extra damage for pretty much everyone. For example, you have ADCs complaining about getting one-shot by Nautilus or Leona"

Comment

Originally posted by imArsenals

Phreak, while the damage/power creep may not specifically be from runes reforged - there is still a damage/power creep and that’s really the “issue” Cody Sun and others are complaining about. And you know that.

I mean if the discussion is "Riot kept buffing AP items like Deathcap and Liandry's and now mage damage is way higher than it's ever been before" then that's a totally different discussion and there's evidence to back up that claim.

But this discussion is "But Electrocute has a higher base damage than Thunderlord's!"

100T Cody Sun: "I think Runes Reforged added kind of a power creep or just extra damage for pretty much everyone. For example, you have ADCs complaining about getting one-shot by Nautilus or Leona"

Comment

Originally posted by raie2

It's true we don't don't have access to the numbers the way you do, so I have a few questions for my own curiosity:

1) How differently do the old runes in contrast to the runes reforged perform mathematically in later stages of the game vs. early stages? In early stages of the game, I imagine (off the top of my head with no research done) that you're right about the old runes not being too different mathematically than the runes reforged, but I would think that as the game continues, the runes reforged offer more damage increases and reductions.

2) I'm not sure exactly how to word this, but how are the possible rune combinations affect the math behind what you said? What I mean is before, one restrictions were that MR glyphs offered more MR than any other runes which meant that if you wanted as much MR as efficiently as possible, you couldn't get CD gylphs. So this system created some limitations in what players could obtain. Now with runes reforged, players can on...

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You have access to the exact same numbers I have. Google "League of Legends old Masteries" as I just did three minutes ago and look up all the old info you want.

Truly, the moment Runes Reforged launched, the itemless PvP combat of the game was unchanged. They fine tuned so hard that they gave Ezreal R 10 flat damage to compensate for the fact that it had a Bonus AD ratio. And again, I went back and spot-checked a few cases and the numbers really came out to nearly-identical. The only thing people really lost was 10% scaling CDR in Glyphs sometimes, and even then that was soft-refunded by the flat MR they gained.

In general, to your second point, people really didn't change rune pages very much. They didn't really even change mastery pages much.

In general, people still don't really make pregame choices because either they don't think to (fair), don't believe it's worth doing (it is), or don't think they know enough to make good choices (also fair). I think ...

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100T Cody Sun: "I think Runes Reforged added kind of a power creep or just extra damage for pretty much everyone. For example, you have ADCs complaining about getting one-shot by Nautilus or Leona"

Comment

Originally posted by Ehler

If youre gonna bash someone for being unable to read patch notes you might wanna read 8.11 yourself.

Replies to a thread about Runes Reforged

References an entirely different patch

Well done.

100T Cody Sun: "I think Runes Reforged added kind of a power creep or just extra damage for pretty much everyone. For example, you have ADCs complaining about getting one-shot by Nautilus or Leona"

Comment

Originally posted by izillah

I feel like this is well trod ground at this point. As general rule EVERYTHING Riot add to the game is more powerful than the stuff that preceded it.

The notable exception in this example is that you cannot really spec into MR and Armour in botlane where it's almost certain you are going to be facing mixed damage.

I'm actually interested in whether other options might be better than arbitrarily going AS|AD|Armour . Especially in some match ups where the AD does mixed or little damage early like Kaisa or Twitch. Or double dipping defence against lanes like Lucian Nami where you will outscale without the 9AD anyway

Mathematically untrue.

When Runes Reforged came out, champions were all compensated for their Seals choice (mostly, just flat Armor, except for mids who were given HP/level). By contrast, mages lost their flat magic penetration marks and other champions lost their magic resist glyphs. That came pretty close to treading water.

There were lots of people, commentators included, who would say things like, "Ah yes, he died because he doesn't have his MR glyphs anymore." That was also fraudulent. For example, most mid laners ran CDR/level runes and so the Runes Reforged base stat changes actually made mages tankier against one another. To claim otherwise means you didn't actually look at pro rune pages and just regurgitated what other people said.

I went so far as to dissect some of the specific cases where this refrain was used, considering all the old runes (Deathfire Touch, Thunderlord's, etc.) they used to run and comparing to the new ones (Aery, Scorch, etc.)...

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17 Feb

Losing to the Shopkeeper - Trinity Force Senna, The Importance of Armor Pen and Ornn Items

Comment

Originally posted by Chancery0

Why is it hard to blame them? I dont understand the level of apologetic for what is lazy, ignorant, and unprofessional behavior.

Building is simple. Yeah, figuring out particular build sets and the most optimal numbers isn't something you can do in a split second. But given a particular build path, there are like a dozen items you are choosing from, if even. Adjusting build order or swapping out 1 or two items situationally is not a challenge. They deserve all the flame. Its frankly embarrassing.

"Feel" and intuition" is bull shit. It's not a baseball swing where there's complex physics and biodynamics, as well as actual physical habituation and development. Its buying an item in a shop, its clicking 3 buttons. Its buying stats that have clear, simple, algebraic results. its not beyond anyone with a middle school education to evaluate item efficiency.

I can tell you from personal experience as someone who's had the same exact job for seven years and am reasonably good at it: It's impossible to be perfect at everything. Any time I reflect on something I hadn't realized, it's just so easy to imagine a generic Reddit/Twitter comment of, "Well yeah you idiot, of course it should be that way."

Virtually any decision can be called easy in retrospect. But that invariably misses the crucial context in the moment.


14 Feb

Losing to the Shopkeeper - Trinity Force Senna, The Importance of Armor Pen and Ornn Items

Comment

Originally posted by Kayle_Bot

Yeah I just wanted to add. They also play on feel a lot because they have to be focused on so many things at the time of their back.

I didn't think the Ssumday one was super problematic, just that in my opinion the tabi's would've done more for him, even with him playing for splitting so I wanted to highlight the value of tabis, even vs a kayle

FWIW Kayle is about 2:1 magic to physical and she does have two slows. Mercs are absolutely the better buy in the 1v1. At that point it's about your judgment of how much combat is being done on which side of the map. But then that's a game pacing call and less so a bad purchase.

Fully agree with the rest of your video, though.

Losing to the Shopkeeper - Trinity Force Senna, The Importance of Armor Pen and Ornn Items

Comment

Originally posted by dcy

I've wondered this for quite some time. Do the pros not think about itemization and their efficiency or is it coaches who tell them what to build and they have to almost blindly follow?

I think ls once said that koreans are practically not allowed to change whatever they're doing (champions, itemization) until it's proven to be good.

In any case, this has been a thing as long as I can remember. With teams that supposedly have strong coaching/analytical staff.

Not to say that there's no innovation happening, just some teams take really long to pick up on what they should be playing/building.

The vast, vast majority of pros simply play on feel. They will even go so far as to rationalize why a suggested build is worse than what they're currently running (e.g. "Why aren't you running Rageblade on Kog'Maw and Varus?").

It's hard to blame them. They've made it to the top 0.001% of players based on their intuition. It can be easy to look at a situation rationally while missing key details that blow your analysis out of the water.

For example, maybe the Kayle Q and Gunblade slows are so important, the only way Sett wins the matchup is through Tenacity. Kayle does build mostly AP after all, so Merc Treads are certainly the better item if you're playing 100% for split push.

Ultimately I still feel that pros make really large glaring mistakes a lot, and whenever you see builds that make you go "WTF" it's probably wrong. But there's some small amount of undue flame.

Losing to the Shopkeeper - Trinity Force Senna, The Importance of Armor Pen and Ornn Items

Comment

Originally posted by endercasts

The shopkeeper has a higher mmr than most of my teammates

I thought y'all wanted Reddit to stop flaming LEC casters.


03 Feb

Calculator for how much ap you'd need to match the damage of a magic pen item

Comment

Originally posted by Skilledplayer674

Can you tldr mpen please, never know if it's worth buying or not. This does make sense to an extent but would like a conclusion too just to clarify, thanks

We'll start with AP

AP is quite simple. It adds a flat amount of damage.

Slightly more complex: The amount that damage matters requires you to consider the base damage of the ability, the AP ratio, and the amount of AP you already have. So for example, if you already have 100 AP, your 200 base damage ability with a 1.0 ratio essentially has 300 base damage and you need to consider what further AP does from there.

Magic penetration is simple multiplication.

Magic penetration has two factors: How much total damage your ability deals (200 + 100x1.0 = 300) and how much magic resist your opponent has. It's actually fairly easy to break down flat pen and percent pen in a similar fashion. Ultimately, all either do is multiply the amount of damage you already deal.

The short answer to your question is two statements:

  1. The higher damage your ability deals, the more valuable magic penetration is.
  2. The lower the AP ratio on the abil...
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30 Jan

Riot Jatt: "I think [the] goal was to increase jungling path diversity. They did that early game and they didn't want [junglers] carrying every high elo solo queue game" [Izento]

Comment

Originally posted by Transky13

"Adc's just had too many base stats"

Can you give examples of this being the case for the ADC role as a whole in recent memory? I'm not talking Ardent Meta where they were broken or specific op champions. I just don't feel like adc's have had "too many base stats" in a long time.

Adc is legitimately the only role I've played (and I've hit diamond playing every role at some point except top) that has the potential to consistently lose a 1v1 to essentially every other character class in the game even with a lead without major missplays. You can be 5-0 and if your team doesn't help you manage the 0-5 Irelia who tp's behind you in a teamfight then you just die.

Obviously I'm speaking in generalities as there are situations that this doesn't necessarily apply, but it really does feel as if high base stats have not been an issue for the role in a long while to me and that a lot of adc's that aren't as competitively viable would be significantly helped by just givi...

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This was where their base hp5 went down to ~5 and base AD went down by about 4, compensated by larger scaling numbers. Basically just nerfed their laning but buffed their late game dps.

It was in specific response to them lane testing mages and found they consistently lost lane against marksmen.

Riot Jatt: "I think [the] goal was to increase jungling path diversity. They did that early game and they didn't want [junglers] carrying every high elo solo queue game" [Izento]

Comment

Originally posted by RaiseYourDongersOP

I agree. It was harder to play non-adcs back then but it was still doable. Also Riot had said they wanted to make adcs non-mandatory but 8.11 wasn't meant to do that really. They nerfed adcs because of ardent meta (still dumb af) and they overnerfed so mages started being played. Then Riot was like "oh we didn't really expect this, this wasn't our immediate intention".

I maintain the opinion that Riot did too many things at once but the idea was good:

  1. The base stat changes / AP ratios to turrets and so on were fine. I think Riot saw from internal playtests that ADCs just had too many base stats and it made early laning impossible against them. I think it was fine to make this change, and TBH, none of this really got unwound, so clearly it ended up fine

  2. They reworked crit items to give IE sh*t base stats and made crit into a true damage conversion instead of a big number payoff. I think this was the wrong call and it's what got reverted.

That's basically all that changed. We're finally in a good spot for crit itemization after walking back the majority of those item changes and we're in a world where mages are indeed viable bot lane and actually considered with relative frequency.

Phreak Show | The Waiting Room

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Originally posted by ScrufyTheJanitor

Be honest, how much are you dreading top lane karma if she starts seeing pro play? As a viewer it's kind of whatever, but I imagine she makes your job as a caster pretty difficult. Hard to get viewers excited at her passive lane phase.

Thankfully there are three lanes to cover, so I tend to not care about how interesting any individual lane is when casting.

It's the teamfights that become very xd