League of Legends Dev Tracker

Ooh, that's a good point, but also unsupported by data.

• Korean Rumble's Mid minus Jungle win rate in bronze: +1.14.
• Korean Rumble's Mid minus Jungle win rate in Master+: +3.12

Now I'll grant you that if you slice the data down far enough until you find data that supports you, you can eventually find data that starts to close the gap, but then you get a host of new issues. For example, there were under 500 games of Rumble mid in master+ Korean solo queue over the last two weeks. If we're going to debate 1-2% win rate shifts as indicative of champion performance, that's not enough samples to support those claims. You also have metagame issues that aren't relevant to pro play.

See, Korean solo queue is rife with early surrenders. Over the last two weeks in master+ Rumble jungle games, Korean solo queue had 23.25% of games end in 15-20 minute surrenders and another 33.23% end pre-25. Worldwide for the same skill bracket and time, it was 15....

So, valid point on word choice.

However, keep in mind, pro play is only far to the right on things like coordination. Canyon may be rank 1 in EUW solo queue right now, but where should we put some of the other players? Cody from INF is 50-48 on his EUW account and is firmly in Master. If we're graphing how well champions play based on their hands and game knowledge... should he be to the right of challenger? If so, why? He's not even to the right of Master in solo queue. It's the same player. Yeah the coordination is different and I agree that one goes off the graph. But not hands. Not laning. Not positioning. Not target selection.

How about his teammates? His opponents? Should we give Rumble jungle the same lofty possibility that we give Wei to every team at MSI, or should teams maybe draft better?

I mean, it's very easy to just tell the ability "amplify magic and physical damage" instead of "amplify all damage."

After all, exceptions are useful. Ahri's Charm impacts the back half of Q. If true damage is hard coded to ignore all damage modifiers, you get way more issues than just making sure you build the skills or buffs correctly.

I have no doubt that Rumble junglers are relatively inexperienced. But unless I see an Azir curve, I'm not buying it.

It also means, regardless, that teams are still hard trolling their drafts. Even if you are in the camp of, "He's actually OP when played well, but teams aren't there yet" then why did virtually every team int all of their drafts by picking or banning him? How bad are you at understanding how your scrims went?

The end result is still the same: Draft better.

Except she's not "still highly prioritized as a competitive jungler."

Her p/b at MSI is 14%. Her two picks are from players eliminated from the tournament. She lost both games.

Literally no one good at League of Legends is playing Lillia today.

I'm not interested in arguing specifically against Dom or LS or anyone. The first draft of this video was two days ago unscripted and it was so rambly I left I unpublished and spent a couple hours yesterday writing a script. It so happened that they put out a new video in between those points in time.

Stacking Headshot is easily measured in gold efficiency: Headshots scale linearly with both AD and AS. It's a non-argument. Simply scaling DPS scales Headshots. To argue that AS is somehow a better Headshot scaler should make you trust them EVEN LESS.

"I need movement speed" is the exact same argument as "I need life steal first on Kog'Maw." I'm glad you feel that way. You're still wrong.

Meanwhile, I can not only prove out the DPS-per-gold, the exact same metric I used to predict new Phantom Dancer as overpowered (spoiler: it is), but also look at solo queue win rate data to see that in real-world applications, a second Zeal is still bad.

So, every single non-subjective form of proof is on my side. And on the other is... Opinion

I agree that learning Rumble is more unique than, say, learning Cassiopeia. We are in total agreement here.

So, wouldn't learning Rumble be a byproduct of playing more games? If so, then why does Rumble jungle's performance drop as he's measured in higher-playing skill brackets?

FWIW, I'd argue it's more like 0 / 0.3 / 0.6 / 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 10.

Just, things like Taliyah ganks only require a 3-4 to be good whereas Ryze ultimates need a 6 or something.

Very much an oversimplification still, but that's the general idea.

Example: Hecarim had a 48-49% win rate in plat+ soloq forever, but it turns out people were building wrong/using the wrong rune. Before people figured out phase rush made him broken, phreak’s ENTIRE argument could be used to make it seem like Hecarim is not a good pick for pro play in the jungle. This was categorically false, and people could have said “yes the soloq winrate for hecarim doesn’t matter because people are playing/building/runing him incorrectly” is absolutely a sound argument. Yes, that person needs to then say “this alternative playstyle, build path, rune choice is wholly superior”.

This one is actually fairly easy to combat for the same reason that it's reasonable to use MMR trending toward pro: High MMR players have their ear to the ground. They pick up the new OP builds. For example, here is the purchase rate of Turbo Chemtank on Hecarim in patch 11.5, when his pro presence spiked to 97%

• Bronze: 27.28%
• Sil...

It's actually accounted for, though:

If Rumble jungle is just 5% worse than Rumble mid because players are bad at him, you'd see a flat win rate difference, but you don't. The difference grows with player skill, and it's bad for Rumble jungle.

See, players in higher MMR play more games. So higher-MMR players have more practice on a given pick. That means you would expect an uptick in new champ performance at higher ratings. But you don't.

Yes, it's imperfect. We're using MMR as a dummy variable to represent practice games. I'm aware that it's flawed. But you'd still intuitively expect that relationship to hold. Instead, we get the opposite.

For whatever reason, as players play more games and play higher-quality League of Legends, Rumble jungle is even worse of a pick and Rumble mid is even better.

Thanks Wickd, you're a real one.

On a technical level, it's just how the items/debuffs are coded.

I don't think it was really intentional; more of an oversight. I could be wrong.

I miss you too mysterious internet stranger. <3

Tutorials and experimentation! Look up Unity or UE4 VFX Tutorials online. :D

Yeah I do. It's worth noting that Kog'Maw also gets 100% uptime attack speed on his Q and Caitlyn gets a ad/crit steroid on her headshot that both increase their dps from AD.

But to your original point, range is a steroid in a more theoretical sense. With more range you're likely to get more autos off from safer positions, which can sometimes manifest in higher DPS (less time not in range of targets), but sometimes doesn't contribute as many additional autos as just raw attack speed does (or as much additional damage as just more raw AD/Crits).

That's true. As mentioned on the other post, adding the gold/min from the "value" of the stats on the souls does place it decently higher, but in comparison to other marksmens base stats+growth it's not an abnormal amount.

That wasn't what they actually said, but I did include some context on that below

Stats from souls are interesting because they are meant to actively off-set the stats other champs get ambiently. In that calculation above I did not count the stats, but I can below:

Comparing Senna to her closest neighbor (Caitlyn), Senna starts with 50 AD and gets 0 every level after. But, her souls grant her .75 AD each. Caitlyn on the other hand starts with 62 AD and gets 4 every level after. Doing napkin math, for Senna to match Caitlyn's natural (free) AD at level 18, Senna would need 100 souls.

Secondly, Senna faces some large disadvantages that actually make AD worse on her. First, she has a low AS ratio (.3), which means she gets less multiplicative DPS value from attack speed than other marksmen. Also, she has an increased auto attack wind-up (twice that of Caitlyn), so her attacks come out slower. These two factors make her DPS-per-AD lower than her peers in the role.

Lastly, Senna is completely lacking marksman steroids in the traditional sense....

Support items give 1000 gold total, and if you literally did it as fast as you can from lane start (2 minutes), it would take you until 10 minutes to get 1000 gold. For reference, last-hitting 80% of minions until 10 minutes is 1600 gold from just farm alone. Not to mention the support item goes from (max) 132 gold/min to 18 gold/min immediately following 1000 gold received.

Senna souls grant you around 32 gold/min (of course not counting the stats), so in total Senna gains up to ~164 gold/min until 10 minutes then ~50 gold/min every minute after, while players that farm decently (80%) get 200 gold/min for the entire game.

So while you might end up with more gold than a marksman that isn't farming well at all, it's not actually true that you get more gold by not farming.