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Love this channel. Gives me Replay File vibes.
Also crazy to think about how long Turtles been playing. I liked him a lot on SR in the spring
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Love this channel. Gives me Replay File vibes.
Also crazy to think about how long Turtles been playing. I liked him a lot on SR in the spring
Insert dotheyknow.jpg here
Glad you like the channel!
This was a bug that leaked onto the main server. I opened a thread on r/LeaguePBE but it couldn't be triaged in time:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LeaguePBE/comments/1fcl44q/custom_game_bots_ignore_enemies_for_long_period/
However, good news is that the bug is gone on PBE, so hopefully by 14.19 they won't be completely broken.
Yep yep, shout out to u/eyounan for flagging to us on the PBE forum, your feedback is always appreciated.
This issue should be fixed on live now!
Read moreYou never explained a few things.
Why nerf E speed? It’s already low. PBE All Out E is literally the same range and speed as E on live. You have to understand how bad that feels.
I get the idea behind swapping All Out E range for lower cooldown and maybe it’s just because it’s so slow now but I think it should have slightly higher range than tank form. Maybe not 400 range but 250 -> 300 and speed 1000 -> 1300 sounds more fair I think.
Why remove the auto attack resets on Q and E? Removing these just makes the champion more clunky for zero benefit.
I like the R changes in theory, my favorite part about K'sante is going ham in R with weaved autos and Q's, but it's actually better on live than now, because K'sante's Q cast time is so high + no resets. It went from .17 to .35, literally double the cast time. I feel like the slow doesn't need to be the same in All Out as it is in base form.
How about 40% slow for .5 seconds and .25 second cast tim...
E speed is not nerfed. It had a strange paradigm previously where dashing to allies added his movement speed to the base speed, but the free-target dash did not. Now his movement speed is always added. PBE scraping probably didn't pick up that change. New E speed is slightly slower before boots 1, slightly faster on boots 1, and faster on upgraded boots.
Auto-resets are extremely elite-player-skewed in a way that's not very interactive, but as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I think you are all correct about the Q changes and have returned that reset. I am truthfully on the fence about the E reset, as dash resets certainly feel very good but are also a lot of early-game power.
I think that the some amount of Q cast time increase is important for reducing K'Sante's reliability. The exact magnitude is up for debate, and I'll be keeping an eye on it as a possible avenue for buffs if we think we've achieved the goals once this ships.
Hello! We are fixing this asap. We fixed it on PBE but it was unfortunately missed on pickup to live! I will write here when I have confirmed it has rolled out to live.
Thank you for flagging and we appreciate your feedback!
EDIT: This should be fixed on live regions now. Thank you again for letting us know
Read moreThank you for the response! It gives me more hope that the frustrating parts about this changes get some iteration before launch.
Mainly i think the attackspeed steroid on R is a really missplaced powerbudget on ksante, since he has(or had) attack resets on Q and E.
I personally would prefer to not have that attackspeed steroid at all and get the Q and E resets again, so i actually need to hit my spells and use them in meaningful ways(probably outplaying, since Q is more difficult to hit now) than just chasing my target with short CD all out E and punching him to oblivion with autos.
If giving his E an auto is too much(simce the cd on allout is really short), at least giving his Q back a reset wouldnt be unreasonable, since the cast time is so long.
I also really like some changes that OP said, like giving his W a zac treatment, where he can only dash to the front of where he aimed his W(would give more clear counterplay while also not t...
Mentioned this elsewhere, but I think you (and many others) are right about the Q reset. I'm adding that one back. Answered most of these other ones elsewhere in this thread, but thank you for the thoughtful comment.
Thanks for taking time to reply. I do have some questions I hope can be answered:
-Why did K'Sante's base range get lowered if his passive procs won't have bonus range?
-Was a lockout of direction change slightly before min charge or after min charge considered?
Lastly... -Why the large quantity of damage focus on W, especially RW? (Sett's kit suffers from the same issue)
Read moreI haven't been on the League team the past couple years, wasn't aware of the Jak'Sho bug. I had to dig around after reading your post to make sure this wasn't intentional behavior—I've now fixed it, thanks for the heads up.
Fair, didn't consider you were on the game modes team while writing the comment, even though i was aware of it.
But now that you were aware of it (and hopefully you are finally our saviour regarding that pesky bug), was that something that made All out feel off during testing or how it would've contributed to balancing around it?
If you feel like this is a PR response, that's fair. More than a meaningless "deal with it" statement, I've tried to share the full reasoning behind a bunch of the changes.
Still thankfull for the insight. Obviously people would've loved it if we got those informations before the post in the first place, but thats also nothing i can really blame you fo...
No, it's totally fine. I didn't mean to make you feel bad about it, lol, and I know very well what it can feel like to be on the other side of dev communications. Even though we're devs, we're still players of other games—just with some experience on both sides of that curtain. A bit unrelated, but I often feel pretty keenly that communicating on Reddit about League in particular is something that makes devs feel that they're in-touch more than something that makes players feel like devs are in-touch, because so much of our audience plays in countries that don't use Reddit/speak English. Feels like there's an opportunity to improve something here, but it's very far from my area of expertise.
This is a tough space to navigate, especially in a PvP game, because we often just have different priorities and different takes from players on what is likely to work or what has to be done. I really wish it were possible to successfully balance or design a game by simply listening to ...
Read moreThanks for the response, but I feel like removing the extra range from E dash, making his Q as slow to as his tank form really just makes the two forms extremely similar, the only difference will be the damage/AS speed, W not stunning and a slight bit of E dash speed.
I feel like it would feel right if his RQ didn't slow and instead he gained ms, since getting slowed is always annoying for the player getting hit by it.
I also feel without E dash over walls and shorter distance he'll struggle even more to stick to people, but that is a fair thing to remove, just feels like RQ slow won't compensate enough.
Without E dash over walls I feel like I'd just want to ult people in the open without any walls, I feel like it'd punish me for using my R over a wall, without being able to chase. Maybe allowing us to dash over a wall using a ward? But that might not be the best idea.
I did consider passive R speed vs. RQ slow, but opted for RQ since that requires an active skill-check (hitting Q) and I tried to maintain or add as many of those as seemed reasonable given his status as a skill-oriented champion.
Hi, thank you for your taking your time and explain idea behing those changes. I must ask tho, I think the OP suggested a pretty fair change of W being in cone like zac E which gives him a bit more flexibility and actual ability to hit enemies. As a Ksante player and main myself you guessed right Im not happy with the change. But by having W in cone makes it still either only defensive tool or offensive just with slight option to choose direction in certain degree. What is your opinion about this suggestion ? And again thanks for your time to actually comment on this.
I think the cone is a clever suggestion that partially addresses the costs that this spell imposes on the rest of the kit. It's higher reliability than I would prefer on the champion, but does require some level of commitment to a general direction, and brings back the ability to "play" with the spell's input a bit. I probably shouldn't say this because it's often taken as a promise (which I unfortunately cannot make), but I'll be thinking about it as a possible angle if we feel we've succeeded with room to spare on the broader game health design goals but K'Sante's play-feel is under the bar.
Read moreHi! Thanks for the detailed explanation. Reading this, I don't like the changes but I trust in the team to make him fun as well as more fair. Could you give more explanation to why you reduced and removed his AA range/passive AA range? I don't understand that part, because K'sante is a slow ms tank he needs the extra bit of range after a successful ability hit to get the damage out, especially in all-out. If the increased attack speed in R was the compensation, I will think this is wrong. This will make him more auto-attack based, which removes a lot of skill.
Before, you HAD to hit an ability to do damage. With the rework, this remained but it was a little more forgiving to just auto attack. How I see the upcoming changes; it will make K'sante want to auto attack way more while less focussing on abilities. W will not be reliable and only a bait spell, and Q will deal more damage but is so slow it won't be worth it to keep using it off-cd on a fast moving target. E+IBG aut...
Yes, certainly. The AA range is mostly meaningful in lane, where he has enough of a range advantage to take low-variance, difficult-to-punish trades with Q + Grasp. The compensation for that is not attack speed, it's increased laning power through higher damage. This fits the overall rework's theme of asking K'Sante players to make committal decisions and reap the rewards or consequences—you'll should generally be better at fighting if you play well, and worse if you play poorly.
Overall, winning fights later in the game should require more skill on average—basic attacking will not get you to a win, even though it might get you closer than before. Currently, landing Q and W is pretty much a given due to their speed and reliability, respectively. After this set of changes, his Q and W are now much less guaranteed to hit with, and both are important to succeeding at his combat pattern since they contribute quite a lot of damage now. This means that if you play well and hit ev...
Read moreRead moreThanks for taking your time on the response. I understand some of your point but there are still some things i want to address:
- No mention of the jaksho bug? (sorry about pestering you about that bug specifically)
Given that this bug pretty much inflated all out drastically (across other bugs that do so), an update like this should be the moment where a fix could be worked on or am i wrong?
I hear you about wanting both the offense and defense at the same time from this spell. (W)
I maybe didn't word it the same way i meant it to sound, but given that it's now a key dmg ability, there is more confusion about the ability. What most players want is that reliability it provides and not having to transform your whole gameplay pattern around hitting it or you dont achieve anything. We would even be happier if it wasn't that massive nuke and bring it closer to the defensive/repositioning tool it used to be.
...
I haven't been on the League team the past couple years, wasn't aware of the Jak'Sho bug. I had to dig around after reading your post to make sure this wasn't intentional behavior—I've now fixed it, thanks for the heads up.
If you feel like this is a PR response, that's fair. More than a meaningless "deal with it" statement, I've tried to share the full reasoning behind a bunch of the changes. I appreciate players' passion for their champions, and I try reflect that passion back by getting into the weeds about design in a Reddit comment first thing Monday morning. I think it's more the case that we disagree on some of the elements we're discussing. This feedback is useful for understanding which pieces of the character you all care most about and where we should consider pulling back if these changes land with room to spare on the overall design goals.
Read moreHi, I'm the designer on this rework, as well as the original designer on K'Sante (I established his identity and core themes/mechanics before leaving for R&D for a while). I appreciate this thoughtful post and wanted to give it a thoughtful, transparent response with more context on the design goals. I'll say up-front that a lot of this rework is focused on fairness—even though League champions should each have their unfair properties that players can deploy against each other, the end result has to have sufficient counterplay and weaknesses. I'm of the belief that K'Sante, when mastered and played by players who full leverage all his options, falls outside the bounds of fairness in both his current and launch versions. My goal is to provide a fair champion that is also fun and rewarding to play. With this in mind, I want to acknowledge that some changes made under this initial premise are pretty much guaranteed to be painful for players who love the champion and what he currently ...
(Post 2/2)
Shorter explanation around the design goals regarding some of the points of contention:
Hi, I'm the designer on this rework, as well as the original designer on K'Sante (I established his identity and core themes/mechanics before leaving for R&D for a while). I appreciate this thoughtful post and wanted to give it a thoughtful, transparent response with more context on the design goals. I'll say up-front that a lot of this rework is focused on fairness—even though League champions should each have their unfair properties that players can deploy against each other, the end result has to have sufficient counterplay and weaknesses. I'm of the belief that K'Sante, when mastered and played by players who full leverage all his options, falls outside the bounds of fairness in both his current and launch versions. My goal is to provide a fair champion that is also fun and rewarding to play. With this in mind, I want to acknowledge that some changes made under this initial premise are pretty much guaranteed to be painful for players who love the champion and what he currently ...
Read moreevery month will be a new split
Next season, each login will trigger a new personal split. carpe diem
We're actively discussing this right now (in fact, just came from a meeting about the topic). Trust me, we hear you.
No promises, yada yada yada, but we are discussing changes to the current reset structure we have.
You'll hear more when we come to firmer conclusions! Stay tuned.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Ehh since the items and changes are all very recent it’s completely possible it’s just a mistake on PBE. Especially since 2 Riot sources are saying it’s supposed to be on-hit
Edit: Beluga responded, it’s meant to be on attack.
no its meant to be an on-attack rune. the tooltip will clarify that shortly. we may re-assess this when tuning it later
Are you worried about lethal tempo doubly scaling with attack speed? Attack speed not only increases the on-hit damage, but also means that those attacks come out more often.
I'm not complaining cause Jax will be happy about it, too, but I wonder if the double scaling is intentional? Of course the amount by which LT's on-hit damage scales with each % AS could always be nerfed, so it would just be a matter of finding the right numbers
no, it'll be tuned to whatever state it needs to be for AS to be good purchases on LT champs. the current tuning may not be it.
Well at this point what type of data for examples would you guys deem appropriate to use to try and fix these skewed perceptions or try to address the bell curve? I unfortunately main support so can't speak for Junglers. But thank you for the response!
We're trying to manage reality + perception across a lot of champions across different skill brackets and we're not going to get it right every time, I'm always interested in real gameplay stories or examples since we'd rather optimize for the experience of playing the game vs. looking at a tier list or winrates on the internet.
You see champs posted on sites like U.GG like Amumu, and Lilia being S tier junglers but then see Belveth being B tier.
Sites like U.GG do skew the perception upon seeing stuff like this and while there are many other sites that would do this... Theres no real concrete way to know because at times it boils down to three things: Champ knowledge and how accessible their learning curve is, Team cohesion, and macro knowledge.
But what tends to skew skill perception is if people choose X champ and then they don't really know how to play another champ if they're a OTP Jungler...
Does this help at all?
I mean heck.. Even for Supports, according to U.gg that Milio, Sona and Zilean are considered B tier compared to Pyke, Senna, and a few others... But it also depends on which rank you're looking at them on U.gg as well... Because lower Elos only gravitate towards whats the best play and get silohed into this thought process to not really explore other champs...
Yeah definitely agree there's nuance to it, interested in people's understanding of why some champs are S vs. B tier and what y'all think we should do about that through some examples.
Looking at Amumu vs. Bel'veth on u.gg 14.17 all ranks, he's S+ tier and she's B tier. Bel'Veth is verifiably the harder champion to learn, players lose a lot of their initial games on her, while first few-game Amumu players are much more successful. They start to equalize in performance once players are around mastery level 11, and earlier in Emerald+ levels (~ mastery level 6 the BV players start to win more games than comparably skilled Amumu players). So basically, if you want to become a Bel'veth main and put time into mastering her, your investment should pay off there.