Yo thank you for addressing rageblade! There has been a lot of discussion about that item here recently and I am glad you guys put it on the list, good job! u/RiotRayYonggi
No problem, I pitched this for this patch and glad it made it in. It's been a bit underwhelming for a while.
Have you got anything major for changes to supports (focus on elite+ play)
Income sucks, super low income tanks are the only viable thing. Even when moonstone+ staff of flowing water was strongest we still saw barely anyone opt out of the rell vs leona vs ali meta. Pros would take seraphine mid or lillia jungle with them instead.
Grevious wounds at 60% kills any dream of scaling with an enchanter, soraka cannot play vs 60% on ignite and a team that stacks the 60% grevious items.
Squishy champs still cannot facecheck anything as ever, so pros have to take a tank support to facecheck fog, where are the ward range extensions for spelltheif items previously said.
Pls give back support items giving gold over 1k more than anything.
I agree with your first point especially and keep forgetting to bring it up. Thanks for the reminder
Poppy
Poppy is pretty sick tbh
A little light this time around, hopefully we are able to address some of the more neglected things (like those items) and some of the "not technically OP but complained about" things while we have the extra bandwidth.
These are pretty huge system changes I’m guessing y’all greenlighted since MSI lock was 11.9. I’m guessing there’s gonna be significant follow up the following patch for how these land?
We definitely had some liberty to swing harder with these changes since it's post-MSI, and yeah we will be monitoring how they land and adjust accordingly. Testing has went well on them but hard to simulate how millions of players of varying skills will play, so we are optimistic but ready to adjust if needed.
Does the Scuttle note mean you are also actively looking to clean up some spells which deal damage first, then break the Scuttle shield?
Most spells in this game follow the "debuffs -> damage" convention, but not all do, even if they easily could. I'm working on a list of how each spell orders these, already, so if you are looking for a wider set of fixes I could forward that once I finish it.
Ah yeah that's interesting. I'd be particularly interested in jungle champs that it happens with.
How will you fix the fact that the jungler will be at level 4 when the top laner and mid laner will be at level 3. Their first clear will be even faster with the 500 damage smite.
You force every lane to back off from the waves. Junglers will have a crazy amount of pressure..
That is a 100 damage difference, overall not a large one considering the total health pool of the jungle up until that point is like 5000. That said, definitely something to keep an eye on and we'll monitor what jungle level 4 timings look like. My prediction is they won't change meaningfully.
This. Also it's really useful for junglers without cc
Lillia pog
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My understanding is that killing scuttle quickly should cause you to "sacrifice" a spell to break the shield in most cases (whether that be CC or a smite), which is why it's not just tankier with no shield. Obviously there's exceptions but that's the general design thoughts.
As for buffing jg XP, there are fewer jungle camps with the reduced timers. Quick maffs says there's 13% fewer jungle camps (excluding buffs). Since no other XP is being increased (except if you're massively behind), this should just flatly be a decrease to XP gained from powerfarming the jungle, which is what all the current "meta" junglers do very well, especially in pro.
Is there any concern for cosmic insight + potentially even Lucids rush being mandatory on every single jungler to get the smite upgrade substantially earlier than the enemy now that it’s even more game warping?
That's a good question and something I'd admittedly not really thought about. I'll have to double check the data to be sure but if I recall correctly cosmic insight is a decent ways away from being competitive on junglers vs the alternatives. Lucidity though might be decently powerful.
That said, doing the math, you get evolved smite 5 smites in and you're likely to use at least two smites before getting lucidity, so taking lucidity will save you ~30 total seconds on evolve smite and cosmic+lucidity will be around ~65 total seconds. I don't expect that to be enough to make a huge difference in a vast majority of games.
Smite (along with crowd control) will break the Scuttle Crab's shield before applying damage
that's pretty massive for like every jungler, no?
When within 200 range of causing the monster to leash, a warning particle will appear to show the monster’s leash range
that's really cool actually
Overall I've found these changes to be pretty helpful as a non-jungle main. Clearing up some of those more arcane clearing optimizations helps me be more useful to my team. Hopefully players on live feel similar.
EDIT: Referring to the "leash" circles specifically
Firstly just to be clear, it's 500 smite then INSTANTLY 1000? Or scales to 1k?
- Smite Damage to Monsters :: 390-1000 (based on levels) >>> 500 at base, 1000 after Smite quest completion
Does Riot consider it an issue that ganking junglers can clear nearly as fast if not faster than farming junglers? Should a distinction not be made between them? Like Farming junglers can clear all 6 camps early and gankers are (basically) unable to before scuttle spawn.
It's kind of nutty that there are no draw backs to most ganking junglers when it comes to clearing and that they can straight up choose While farming junglers that can't gank as well cannot.
Previously for instance Hec had an insane clear, shouldn't he be on the level of clear of something like WW? While a champion like Kayn can full clear since his ganks are weaker and wants to farm.
To be fair, smite is not up for every camp and having smite available for combat would be an advantage for champions that don't need to use it to clear.
Maybe now my junglers wont be 4 levels behind
I'll still be 4 levels behind sorry
Isnt it more correct to compare fasting Senna to ADCs? She is picking up ADC items, she is fulfilling the role of "sustained damage dealer". The only difference that she give some farm to enable her support more early (and due to soul giving gold - not that much in gold equivalent).
My impression (I may be out-of-touch) is that the frostfire build this post is about is played largely as a support in conjunction with a marksman/mage bottom laner. I have personally yet to see a Frostfire Senna "fasting" with a Tahm or something similar.
As for the fasting "adc items" Senna, that is actually 4% lower win-rate in SoloQ. In pro it's definitely much more effective, but it's no secret that SoloQ win-rates don't translate 1-1 to pro.
Thanks for the honest replies and insight! Curious on your personal opinion of the newest lulu buffs on pbe? If you're able to answer that, that is.
Sure, obviously completely personal (not reflective of my company's stances blah blah blah), but I've found Lulu to be very average right now in the meta and historically she can sit at a slightly higher win-rate without it being a problem (a-la Jinx). With that said, polymorph is my personal least favourite part of Lulu so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the buff doesn't mean more casts on enemies and instead means more casts on allies.
Since you're talking champs with crazy spikes, does Taliyah have an item like that?
Like how MF has Kraken slayer, yet no one wants to buy it on her for some reason.
No one plays Taliyah much so unexpected builds pop up a lot less.
Good question. It's a little tough since her play-rates are pretty low across the board, but it appears, glancing at the data, that Ludens remains her best mythic (hello move speed), with Horizon Focus/Rylai's being some interesting/unexpected legendaries she can pick up midlane with good win-rates. The caveat here is that there's only like 5k game sample size for each of these (poor Taliyah) and I'm not quite data savvy enough to know where the sample size is large enough to reliably draw conclusions from.
If Hecarim/Udyr remain the norm and there's no tanks top she might see play. It's hard to imagine she has a higher priority than Jinx, Kai'sa, Trist at the moment. I could absolutely eat my words as dive comps become god tier again, though.
With Kai'sa the premier "Dive-buddy" marksman, Samira would have to be pretty good to take that role I think.
Spoiler, she won't, not while Varus is slowly becoming a contested pick in the meta
Yeah I also have a hard time seeing her take priority over other historically strong pro-play marksmen, but only time will tell.
im here wondering why you havent nerfed leona yet when shes been top 4 supports consistently for so long, often the best support
I don't make the decisions on what we buff/nerf, but I will agree that I personally find her to be getting a bit stale with her being at the top of the support pool for a while.
You know who is also slipping past everyone? Samira..She will be the number 1 pick/ban in MSI.
Funny you mention that, I actually wonder what she will look like as far as pro priority goes. She's sitting at a comfortable 51% win-rate, I wonder if that's enough for pros to pick her up. The game has seemed to move away from her style of marksmen though so it's a real toss-up.
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