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PhreakRiot

PhreakRiot



06 May

Riot need to decide whether true damage is affected by damage modifiers or not.

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Originally posted by kaazmodan

Yup depends on the champion. Some movements are cancelled (like Cait E) some movements will finish (like Graves E) some movement abilities that weren't yet moving will still "go off" (like Tristana W and Urgot E) which is buffering. But if you catch a Tristana in the middle of her W it cancels like Cait E.

I believe these are the 3 movement situations. Now to decipher which champion has which type of movement ability for 100 champions :) GL new players.

To be fair, Caitlyn E is like the only ability in the game that does this.

Though they did add Yasuo into the game and his E does this, too (he feels new to me, I know he's not).

Otherwise, League has a pretty much fundamental rule that once a spell has been started it will complete unless you're dead or the target's gone. Dashes and blinks are extremely consistent on this front. (Caitlyn is intended sort of but should change, Yasuo is also intended and is more reasonable)

90%/50%/10% predictions for MSI 2021

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  • 90% Cloud9 wins MSI
  • 50% Cloud9 loses 1 game in MSI final
  • 10% Cloud9 loses 2 games in MSI final

01 May

Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 30 - Jungle Accessibility.

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Originally posted by A-Terrible-Username

I am terrible at smiting so I get yelled at all the time lol.

My go to is to say "pro players lose smite fights all the time what do you expect from me, a plat player" and I've gotten a surprising amount of sympathetic responses

My premade's jungler is gold.

It doesn't save him.


28 Apr

What if Riot buffed Demonic Embrace for melee champs?

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Demonic embrace is already outstanding on those melee champions, though. It doesn’t even need a buff. Go buy it.

Turns out and health armor and mr tend to be melee-skewed stats. It’s already melee-biased as an item.


25 Apr

Plate gold giving away location lol

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Originally posted by ratherscootthansmoke

Not the first time something like this has happened either.

IIRC, Zombie Brand had a different run animation chasing champions and that would cycle even if enemies were in an unwarded bush

If it's the clip I'm thinking of, that's not true.

It's a spectator thing: The animation is played client-side if you can see Brand walking at an enemy champion. So if you watch Zombie Brand as a spectator you'll see the custom animation of him walking toward an enemy. The Brand player doesn't see anything different.


15 Apr

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

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Originally posted by cygodx

FWIW, Hecarim and Udyr each received several nerfs in addition to Chemtank being nerfed.

A champ that gets AD from movement speed that builds three movement speed TANK items to also deal damage in return will not be balanced by spell numbers tho.

I bet if Hecarim Q dealt 12 base damage he'd be unplayable. Wanna take me up on it?

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

Comment

Originally posted by Miyaor

I agree with your overall point, but unless something has really changed, Kindred has never been good into Udyr. I haven't played jungle since the season started, so maybe galeforce or something has changed things for Kindred, but they could never kite an Udyr, unless you keep jumping back and forth over a wall. He is simply too fast, and I would suspect its similar to Taliyah. This was before chemtank, and I imagine chemtank has made the jungle matchup harder. Maybe winrates support Kindred doing well into Udyr, but that is definitely not because they can kite him.

Agree that there are some counters, but just an exception to that one. A good Udyr will always shit on a Kindred. Once you get your second item you can start standing up to him, but in pro play I assume that is far too late.

A lot of it is also that he just doesn't get anything done against Kindred ultimate. You're not oneshotting, even with help, with Flash Bear Slap so after Lamb's Respite you're just a 20% health Udyr in front of a team. It's not terribly successful. Jumping walls also lets them get away reasonably well.

Kindred aren't in a great spot in overall power, but the Udyr matchup is very winrate positive.

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

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Originally posted by yehiko

but you do. priority or not, if everyone reacts, level 4 > 3 makes the fight in your favor every time. plus your smite is stronger.

Your smite dealing 30 damage is not going to make up for the 500 health and flash you lost because Viktor roamed first and you can't 1v2 in front of a full health scuttle. Good players use wards and just shepherd the crab out of smite range.

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

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Originally posted by LumiRhino

I'm just curious for your opinion, but do you think nerfing systems around the jungle meta (Phase Rush/Chemtank, even the starting jungle item) would do more for the meta than actual changes to the jungle champs?

I think Chemtank dominating both pro play and solo queue win rates would indicate Chemtank is more the problem. At least it got nerfed two weeks ago. It's possible that the cheaper tank mythics were just not a good idea since it heavily pushes junglers, who have slightly less gold income than most roles in pro, to just play for the cheaper mythics and move forward.

I don't think Phase Rush is that meta warping. If anything it's pushing back on melee run-at-you junglers since Orianna and Cassiopeia can just run away from them with their keystone.


14 Apr

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

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Originally posted by showmethestarcraft

This is helpful. Appreciate the clear conversation + involvement in the community.

Are there any plans on nerfing MS in general + do you think Mage items this season that have mana are a bit lackluster? It's wild that I can play Garen have a Stridebreaker dash + 300 armor and 300 AD but there's no counter for mages.

Sure there is. Void Staff exists as do all sorts of ways to slow him down or stop him in his tracks.

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

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Originally posted by drmamumumu

sorry did you say taliyah and kindred for outkiting udyr? the guy that runs at 600 movement speed constantly without chemtank?

Yeah if we make up numbers anything can be true! Taliyah does over 9000 damage and just oneshots the poor guy!

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

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Originally posted by link-mal-or-btfo

please tell me why even allow such one dimensional, non skill expressive champs to be viable not even in d2+ games but in pro play ?

Udyr actually has some of the steepest champion mastery in the game. Turns out that when you have no gap closers or escapes and can only use one ability at a time, knowing when to go in, leave, or choose among damage/durability/disables is pretty skillful.

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

Comment

Originally posted by showmethestarcraft

And this isn't even mentioning their impact on soloq, at least hecarim is perma banned so you don't have to deal with him often.

Phreak this is a slight tangent to the Udyr/Heca comments, but wouldnt it be a bit ignorant to say that the balance team has been hitting Heca and Udyr when the primary reason for their abuse is their clear speed and early/mid game. The Chemtank nerf was an offset at best as it buffed the slow and nerfed the speed. The Heca nerf of 10% was for late game rather than his early game. Games that go that late are already decided?

Another aspect I want to ask about is Orianna / Azir / Syndra. Why weren't compensation buffs given to Orianna like base armor/mr buffs so its less teamfight (pro) oriented so its solo q rate doesnt drop. Sigyetaeyeob a GM Orianna player and a lot of orianna players are unhappy with the solo q experience because of how bad she is this season.

Hecarim's E speed doesn't scale on rank. The scaling movement speed is just how E functions. It's an all-game change.

Hecarim's first nerf was to Q damage.

Kinda disingenuous to call any of those things "not clear speed"

Compensation buffs exist when you aren't trying to rapidly solve a pro play problem. Anything like that is automatically a larger project and one you have to keep up with. Yorick is a good example of this.

If your goal is to nerf a champion to lower its pro priority (Orianna, Udyr, Hecarim) you just nerf them. At some other point down the line they can stop to figure out if pros are just being change-averse (this happens a lot) or if there's actual fenagling that needs to happen, like with Azir or Ryze.

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

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Originally posted by Slotherz

Total number of nerfs isn't as relevant as the effectiveness of them. I think the point you've indirectly made here is that the nerfs haven't been good enough and some responbility here lies on the balance team.

I've seen champs get f**king nuked when Riot wants the champ out of pro play. It's clear with the repeated love taps to both Udyr and Hec that Riot was at least complicit with or enjoyed having then around and didn't want to blast them out of pro play (or blast their soloq win rates).

No jungle meta has ever been amazing tbh, but this Udyr Hec meta needs a stronger hand from the balance team to force it out, and it's not like it isn't clear why they're so good, as you can see from the comments in this thread.

To be clear, there are two distinct things going on:

An Udyr nerf, with a follow up that seems to be giving a real decline to Udyr pick/banrate, to the point where I expect with no further changes, he'd be sub-80, which tends to be the cutoff point. Still, he had another small nerf in 11.7. The round 2 nerf probably could have come in sooner, though.

And Hecarim, who did not cross pro play thresholds until the 11.6 nerf, which was a pretty substantial 0-20 damage off of Q. That is generally not what you'd consider a love tap on a low cooldown primary damage ability.

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

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Originally posted by manbearbeaver

I think my biggest problem, is finding champions that punish Udyr/Hec. There aren’t a lot of good scaling answers to them, Karthus can work but has a much higher risk factor. You can beat them early with Nid, but then risk falling off. I feel like we’re in a limbo where carry junglers don’t get the necessary resources and traditional utility junglers can’t keep up.

Champions that appear to do well against Hecarim: Ivern, Skarner, Dr. Mundo, Nunu, Volibear, Rek'Sai, Trundle, Jarvan. So, mostly champions who fill the role of beefy frontliners while likely being able to out-duel him.

Good against Udyr: Ivern, Lillia, Zac, Sejuani, Taliyah, Kindred, Mundo. So, champions who make it difficult for Udyr to get past them (CC from Ivern/Taliyah) or just kite exceptionally well (Lillia, Taliyah, Kindred).

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

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Originally posted by FlameOfDark

i love you so much man <3

<3

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

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Originally posted by Best_Lingonberry_608

I mean Seraphine is much more popular in mid and bot though, TK has never been the same since those nerfs in season 9 he is a corpse of what he was (and for good reason too because he was pretty busted in pro-play). Honestly thinking of it more closely this season has better than season 9 or 10 in terms of support diversity.

My problem with the balance in support in the last 3 seasons I cannot really remember a time where Mages and Enchanters were clearly the meta over tank supports like Thresh, Ali, Nautilus, Leona, Rakan, etc. in botlane. Like when was the last time Zyra, Karma, or Lulu have been the top of the meta as supports in pro-play? Sorry for the digression this is just a pet peeve of mine about support balance.

In terms of mid I mean I don't blame Riot as much for that. The game is played almost entirely around Dragon Soul right now so you need to have good late-game teamfighting to win those fights and control mages are great at that.

1-2 years ago Karma was perma pick/ban. This was after the Ardent Censer meta.

I agree I'd like a much healthier mix of tanks and enchanters. For whatever reasons, pros seem to just go 100-0 on one side of it. Even in the Ardent Censer year, we went up until Worlds with whatever champion just building Redemption with Censer just sitting there unpicked for the whole season.

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

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Originally posted by Djinn_in_Tonic

Apologies! Meant it more as a reminder in case it was an unintentional slip-up than a "got you!" sort of thing. Cheers, and thanks for engaging in these discussions!

No apologies needed. I worded my post poorly and you caught it. Thanks! :)

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

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Originally posted by Djinn_in_Tonic

Hecarim's most recent nerf was 11.6

You guys actually took 10% off his maximum Devastating Charge speed in 11.7! Easy one to miss, given how much he's been in the patch notes lately.

Right, yeah, pro-facing nerf. I'll fix the post.

Riot refusing to address hecarim/udyr meta for so long really puts me off being excited for MSI

Comment

Originally posted by Best_Lingonberry_608

You raise some fair points, but I think this Spring has been really boring meta-wise in jungle especially but also in support and mid-lane. I know people used to complain about Riot making too many forced changes to meta, but honestly I would like to see some forced changes and a different meta after MSI. Maybe Viego and Gwen being available in Summer will shake up the meta?

Outside of Alistar and Rell, I'd argue that there's a lot of space in support when looking at the whole year. It's heavily engage tanks because of the first two and the next few who trail them, but Senna, TK, Seraphine, and Gragas occasionally built full AP make for some decent variety.

Mid is really just dominated by Orianna Azir Syndra Viktor Zoe TF, mostly the first three. I think Riot did a good job of getting Sylas into a playable spot and we saw some Lucian/Trist, which was also cool, but yeah I think the Orianna changes came too late.