I thought this change also implied that you gain/lose more MMR for each game. Are you saying the change only affects LP gains?
Yes, this change only affects LP gains. MMR works quite well at what it's designed for, which is to evaluate skill player that matchmaking can use to create fair matches.
Wait so does stuff like performance rating factor into MMR? If not, How do you determine if someone is on a 'lucky streak' or if they 'appropriately belong there'?
Do they maintain ~ a 50% winrate at their current MMR? If yes, then they probably belong around there. If their winrate is lower than 50% at their current MMR, they might've gotten lucky or something. If their winrate is higher than 50% at their current MMR, they probably are below where they should be.
Read moreOne question, it seems to be that since LP gains changed a few seasons ago, when you win many games in a row, your mmr climbs slower than your rank/lp gain, making you win less LP the more you climb, which makes it really frustrating to see when you have 20 wins more than losses yet your gains are shit. That said, the opposite happens when you lose, making you win more LP after a loss streak. Why does this happens? Is this intentional? It seems to only get fixed if you get through promos to another tier or just getting stuck after climbing until it evens up back again. This change in gains was hotfixed because it was absurdly broken, but now it still feels broken, just slightly so people don't complain as much.
I think that this makes it really frustrating, because for example, you might get a winstreak in Diamond 4, playing with people in your rank/mmr, and get to Diamond 2 eventually. These games in D2, you will have low LP gains and play with people in Diamond 3. People ...
MMR does move more slowly than visible rank, yes. So when the season resets and your rank is far below your MMR, it will move very quickly to catch up, and gains flatten as you approach equilibrium. Conversely, when you lose a lot, your MMR doesn't fall as fast as your rank does so you get a bit of a boost to recoup some of those losses.
My point was exactly that. He won't be able to sustain it so he will fall after a few games. That doesn't change the fact that at his peak lp he was way out of his league. So those games will feel unfair to his teammates.
In addition, there is the psychological part of league. When someone is losing they are tilted, obviously. So of course they won't stop to take a breath and refresh, they will keep playing. They go on a losing streak till they can no longer lose because even on their worst day, they will win that game. After that, they will go on a winning streak because they are no longer tilted and their skill level goes back to normal, and then the amount of positive energy carries them over their skill level for the cycle to continue.
This is already happening, but the increase in lp gain will mean the amplitude of this oscillation will rise. This means the skill difference between the lucky player and their teammates will be higher.
Matchmaking is exclusively based on MMR after the change we made at the start of the season - so the matches you play in after this change will be the exact same matches you played in before this change, even if visual rank is a little different.
hmm isn't that a bit of a placebo change overall then for climbing, not that I don't think the majority of the playerbase are a bit stupid when it comes to blaming anything outside their skill for their rank.
Is the focus just for people who play very rarely to get back to their pre reset rank quicker?
You'll overall climb faster to the level of your MMR, and then we want ranked to be more of a journey with ups and downs where you can make progress (in either direction) in a good or bad session instead of being kinda stuck in the mud where nothing much happens and your LP/rank doesn't move much at all. So if you're a Gold 3 player who might be hovering at that level today, maybe after this change you'll more frequently oscillate to Gold 4 and Gold 2.
Does this mean u can get like over 30 lp with good mmr
yes
so people are also gaining and losing more mmr per game now? Might seem like an obvious question but without that people would end up straight back to +14 for a win pretty quickly after a win streak boosting lp above mmr
No, no changes to the MMR system. So you're right and that's intentional, in order to sustain a rank in our system your MMR needs to be at that rank's level.
how is this going to impact ranked inflation, sounds like this will massively increase the % of people in each tier.
Not to mention master tier is -already- way too inflated (had 10k people in last season) for being a supposed "apex" tier with the daily decay needed
This will only let people get to the place they were going to end up more quickly, it doesn't change anything about the interaction between MMR & rank. In other words, your MMR needs to be at a certain amount to be able sustain a given rank, so it shouldn't be inflationary in the sense of people inauthentically being at a rank.
What about players who gain on average let's say 20 to 22 LP per game currently? Will they also have their LP gains/losses adjusted?
Yeah you'll probably have something in the range of +32-35
Don't you think that 22 might be too much? After every time someone gets a lucky win streak they will get exposed by being way worse than everyone else in the game making the game very unbalanced.
This change won't be changing the fact that you need a certain level of MMR to sustain a rank - a player who hits a lucky streak without appropriately belonging there would fall out with net negative gains unless they could maintain a good winrate at that level.
Getting your secondary role is not being autofilled. Secondary 5 times in a row is unlucky, sorry about that.
But also, mid is more popular this patch globally than I've ever seen it with Aurelion Sol, Ahri, and Annie changes. We require 1 player in each role to start a match, so a lot of mid players right now are going to be getting their secondary roles or autofilled.
Normal MMR is separate from Ranked MMR. It goes up when you win games and down when you lose them. Normal Blind and Normal Draft share the same MMR number
I laugh manically and twirl my mustache as I deliver +5 invisible HP to the team who's collectively been playing the game longer.
Ok we definitely don't do anything like this, but there is one point I think I can help clarify a bit:
Also, take into consideration what percentage of your ranked games are just complete stomps from beginning to end. That doesn't seem right considering matchmaking is supposed to be composing teams from a pool of players allegedly fairly equal in skill level.
Teams of equal skill levels does not necessarily resolve into close, long games. Snowball is really powerful in League. Take two teams who are equal skill - put one jungler on Elise and the other on Kindred. If Elise decides to invade Kindred at level 1, coinflipping, stealing red, and killing her, we've all seen those games where Kindred basically doesn't get to play anymore if her team didn't draft lanes with strong priority.
Conversely, ...
Read moreAny updates please?
This was done. Can you send me your account name and region if something is still wrong? We left alone accounts that had reached Gold/Plat because they'd already put in a lot of games and we also wanted to avoid false positives.
Was coming in 13.2 but we had to skip that patch, will be in 13.3.
does normal mmr decay if you play exclusively arams? Wondering since it's been almost a year since I played a norm but I play aram every day.
I believe it does, but don't remember for sure.
what about all the people who are inactive? I have 3-4 accounts now that are all easily 5-10 divisions worth of mmr over my actual skill, with all but one of them being inactive across 3-4 seasons and the only solution is to play a few hundred games at a mildly negative winrate where i underperform every game (but am not bad enough to drop far below that 40-45% winrate overall threshhold). Even at the start of the season. its miserable to try to get back into the game.
it was even worse when these accounts were automatically in smurf queue, but I heard that was removed.
Normal MMR decays on an algorithmically fit curve depending on how long you're away, Ranked MMR does not currently because of the implications it would have on your progression (e.g. climb for 1 month, disappear for 3 months, come back and your LP gains/losses are now awful because your MMR decayed). Depending on how high your accounts' MMRs were they'd be hit by the start of season soft MMR resets though. There are probably some creative solutions to this specific problem.
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Pretty much, would only add it would take quite a bit longer than 4 weeks to resolve. Like the post above said we have years of calibrations for all the folks who've been around for that long.
Read moreIt just seems like matchmaking in general feels worse compared to up until season 6-8 or so. Games feel far less stable, and far more often one-sided.
Is this just a symptom of role select as people solely grew more specialized and less versatile, you think? Is it just people being less experienced in secondary and autofill roles, and leading to relatively frequent lopsided experiences? I'm still of the mind that role select feels great for players, but was bad for the game overall.
Or do you think its a symptom of where meta has shifted, where coinflips commonly happen before a jungle even finishes first clear?
As far as "stats", its just noticed trends (could be anecdotal), but its also something that others seem to mention somewhat commonly as well. I remember people thought 5+ win/loss streaks were crazy unless you're playing far outside of your actual MMR back in early seasons. Now it seems like 5+ isn't uncommon in comparison even for plateau'd players...
Role select did a lot of different things. Like you said, it's led to players becoming less versatile because it allows you to hyperspecialize, but it's also made a lot of players really happy for that reason. "Feels great for players but was bad for the game overall" isn't a rare opinion internally, but it would probably take a lot if we decided we wanted to unwind it.
Gameplay is absolutely something that can affect how fair a match feels. If the meta shifts from "farm and scale for late, mages and ADCs are the strongest" to "early game hyperaggro invade junglers every game", the latter games probably feel more one sided even though nothing changed with matchmaking.
On streaks, humans are pretty bad at recognizing randomness. It'd be more likely we were rigging things if streaks weren't frequent. On a pure 50/50 coinflip the chances of you getting heads 5 times in a row are 1/32. Then consider how many players per day are flipping those coins, you're ac...
Read moreRead morehttps://web.cs.ucla.edu/~yzsun/papers/WWW17Chen_EOMM peer-reviewed study warning
So an engagement optimized system isn't being used?
- We're going to ignore the high prevalence of extended win/loss streaks in modern seasons which very closely match trends found under EOMM-based matchmaking?
- Are we going to ignore the consistency in the high prevalence of recent performance discrepancies between two teams? If you don't know what I'm talking about, seeing a team full of 50%+ WR, and the other full of 49%- WR, rather than a relatively random distribution that would be expected.
These didn't happen often in early seasons. Win/loss streaks and recent player performance on each team would appear relatively random in a normal system.
Are you saying Riot would have zero motivation to use a similar system after all of the past /dev posts talking about wanting higher playe...
So an engagement optimized system isn't being used
Correct, it's not
Where are you getting your stats on streaking and team performance distribution compared to prior seasons?
We have a pretty straightforward strategy for increasing engagement - put out cool stuff that the players want to engage with and build long term trust that we're gonna be straight with you, are in it for the long haul, and are committed to all of those things because we're players too and those are all pretty fundamental things everyone wants.
We could juice all sorts of ranked engagement metrics with EOMM for a while, but how long are you going to stick around with League if we were to actually start rigging the ranked system? If we were, I wouldn't be out here telling you we aren't because that'd be pretty slimy. Would you trust other Riot games? There's all sorts of downstream consequences to violating trust like that.
There's versions of...
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