Can we at least get a dev blog as why this is a hardship? I also work with legacy software so I understand the hardships. The dev blogs/post mortems of this type of shit is always appreciated.
When we resolve it I can see what's shareable, it's unlikely it'll warrant a whole blog post though :P
What about Match History showing 21 games instead of the usual 20, is that one harder than we would expect as well?
buy 20 matches get 1 free
It has not been forgotten, it's one of those bugs that seems like it should be simple to resolve but actually isn't unfortunately
So this is something I was wondering when the increased lp gains were announced but didn't see confirmed.
Let's say in the old system, you started having net negative lp gains once your lp was 100 points higher than your mmr.
Before, that would mean it'd take roughly 100/15 = 6 or 7 games until you lose more than you gain.
With the new system, does it still take that same amount of games, or does it now only take 100/22 = 5ish games?
Something like the latter, it'll happen faster
It feels like it's way worse now, it almost seems like they should've increased the amt of MMR you gain to make up for the sheer amount of LP your gaining compared to before the patch. This is also kind of an issue because some people will be masters but only playing in D2 lobbies. Which, isn't the biggest skill difference? But, there's a skill difference.
I guess the point is, if it was a problem before? Just imagine how bad it is now.
Net negative gains (losing more than you win) are really tragic because they basically say that your expected value for playing League is negative, if you go 50/50 in your matches you're going to end lower than you started. The reason they exist is to prevent rank inflation, so you can't luck your way upwards and sustain that rank if you don't belong there. We're pretty interested in addressing it somehow. Less time spent in a net-positive state was a known tradeoff of increasing LP amounts, since you'll be dragged upwards faster towards your target rank than you were before.
Part I want to comment on is when folks propose "increase MMR speed" as a solution - MMR is a system that outputs a number specifically optimized for skill assessment. The issue here is a ranked progression one rather than one with skill assessment, so we should solve it within the scope of the ranked system. Unless increasing MMR variance resulted in higher quality matches that wouldn't be the answer ...
Read moresometimes i flip a coin and when i get 3 tails in a row i shake my fist at Jesus for putting me in tails queue
lmao I love this
Thanks for the correction.
And it was definitely removed with 2016 Dynamic Queue. I remember that announcement very clearly.
It was probably just added back when solo queue was reinstated.
possible yes! that was before my time
A duo in a match has more of an advantage over the solo players in their match than they should right now, so we're making a change which should result in them being put in games with higher skilled players on both sides.
This f**ks over the soloq players though. Because if your team has 1 duo pair, and the enemy team has no duo pairs, you're basically guaranteed to lose the game since the enemy team will out-gap you.
Why are we punishing soloq players? This just makes it feel like an even bigger Losers Queue whatever soloq player gets matched on the team with the duo.
Right now in the scenario you're describing the duo has a small advantage, we're bringing it closer to 50/50 for both sides.
Crazy that duo queue had no MMR penalty.
That was removed in dynamic queue and only readded in this patch.
They've always had a penalty, we just determined it was a little lower than it should be.
How does that work with matchmaking variance? Can't put it in the words so here's a theoretical example:
Assume I am 1250 MMR and I matchmake in a lobby range of 1200-1300. Is there a difference if I keep winning in 1200mmr lobbies and losing in 1300mmr lobbies and the other way around(winning in 1300mmr lobbies losing in 1200mmr lobbies)?
Also, back in season 11 I ran into a situation when with 53% WR in over 200 games I was consistently(as in from like game 20? to game 200) losing more LP than I gained. How does that even happen?
To the first question yeah there could be, MMR gain and loss on a per-game basis can be affected by the MMRs of the other players in that game and how likely we think it is you'll win or lose - we matchmake as close to 50% as possible every time, but if you win a match we assessed was a 49% chance for you to win you'd gain more MMR than if you won a match we assessed had a 51% chance of your victory.
For your second question it's really hard to say without knowing more about your account or being able to trace your ranked journey, sorry.
I thought this change also implied that you gain/lose more MMR for each game. Are you saying the change only affects LP gains?
Yes, this change only affects LP gains. MMR works quite well at what it's designed for, which is to evaluate skill player that matchmaking can use to create fair matches.
Wait so does stuff like performance rating factor into MMR? If not, How do you determine if someone is on a 'lucky streak' or if they 'appropriately belong there'?
Do they maintain ~ a 50% winrate at their current MMR? If yes, then they probably belong around there. If their winrate is lower than 50% at their current MMR, they might've gotten lucky or something. If their winrate is higher than 50% at their current MMR, they probably are below where they should be.
Read moreOne question, it seems to be that since LP gains changed a few seasons ago, when you win many games in a row, your mmr climbs slower than your rank/lp gain, making you win less LP the more you climb, which makes it really frustrating to see when you have 20 wins more than losses yet your gains are shit. That said, the opposite happens when you lose, making you win more LP after a loss streak. Why does this happens? Is this intentional? It seems to only get fixed if you get through promos to another tier or just getting stuck after climbing until it evens up back again. This change in gains was hotfixed because it was absurdly broken, but now it still feels broken, just slightly so people don't complain as much.
I think that this makes it really frustrating, because for example, you might get a winstreak in Diamond 4, playing with people in your rank/mmr, and get to Diamond 2 eventually. These games in D2, you will have low LP gains and play with people in Diamond 3. People ...
MMR does move more slowly than visible rank, yes. So when the season resets and your rank is far below your MMR, it will move very quickly to catch up, and gains flatten as you approach equilibrium. Conversely, when you lose a lot, your MMR doesn't fall as fast as your rank does so you get a bit of a boost to recoup some of those losses.
My point was exactly that. He won't be able to sustain it so he will fall after a few games. That doesn't change the fact that at his peak lp he was way out of his league. So those games will feel unfair to his teammates.
In addition, there is the psychological part of league. When someone is losing they are tilted, obviously. So of course they won't stop to take a breath and refresh, they will keep playing. They go on a losing streak till they can no longer lose because even on their worst day, they will win that game. After that, they will go on a winning streak because they are no longer tilted and their skill level goes back to normal, and then the amount of positive energy carries them over their skill level for the cycle to continue.
This is already happening, but the increase in lp gain will mean the amplitude of this oscillation will rise. This means the skill difference between the lucky player and their teammates will be higher.
Matchmaking is exclusively based on MMR after the change we made at the start of the season - so the matches you play in after this change will be the exact same matches you played in before this change, even if visual rank is a little different.
hmm isn't that a bit of a placebo change overall then for climbing, not that I don't think the majority of the playerbase are a bit stupid when it comes to blaming anything outside their skill for their rank.
Is the focus just for people who play very rarely to get back to their pre reset rank quicker?
You'll overall climb faster to the level of your MMR, and then we want ranked to be more of a journey with ups and downs where you can make progress (in either direction) in a good or bad session instead of being kinda stuck in the mud where nothing much happens and your LP/rank doesn't move much at all. So if you're a Gold 3 player who might be hovering at that level today, maybe after this change you'll more frequently oscillate to Gold 4 and Gold 2.
Does this mean u can get like over 30 lp with good mmr
yes
so people are also gaining and losing more mmr per game now? Might seem like an obvious question but without that people would end up straight back to +14 for a win pretty quickly after a win streak boosting lp above mmr
No, no changes to the MMR system. So you're right and that's intentional, in order to sustain a rank in our system your MMR needs to be at that rank's level.
how is this going to impact ranked inflation, sounds like this will massively increase the % of people in each tier.
Not to mention master tier is -already- way too inflated (had 10k people in last season) for being a supposed "apex" tier with the daily decay needed
This will only let people get to the place they were going to end up more quickly, it doesn't change anything about the interaction between MMR & rank. In other words, your MMR needs to be at a certain amount to be able sustain a given rank, so it shouldn't be inflationary in the sense of people inauthentically being at a rank.
What about players who gain on average let's say 20 to 22 LP per game currently? Will they also have their LP gains/losses adjusted?
Yeah you'll probably have something in the range of +32-35
Don't you think that 22 might be too much? After every time someone gets a lucky win streak they will get exposed by being way worse than everyone else in the game making the game very unbalanced.
This change won't be changing the fact that you need a certain level of MMR to sustain a rank - a player who hits a lucky streak without appropriately belonging there would fall out with net negative gains unless they could maintain a good winrate at that level.
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